Old IDS 2 Proposal from the Early 90s

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spearson
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Old IDS 2 Proposal from the Early 90s

Postby spearson » November 12th, 2012, 3:36 pm

I finally found a model of the once proposed IDS 2, as well as two other tower models proposed in the early 90s for the old Sheraton site (the parking lot across nicollet from the library). Take a look at this baby:

IDS 2:
http://danwhittaker.com/tea/mod/HTML/sld132.htm
Image

Misc Proposal 1:
http://danwhittaker.com/tea/mod/HTML/sld130.htm
Image

Misc Proposal 2:
http://danwhittaker.com/tea/mod/HTML/sld131.htm
Image

Neat eh?

widin007
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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby widin007 » November 12th, 2012, 4:04 pm

Do you know why these never materialized? Just not enough demand?

spearson
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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby spearson » November 12th, 2012, 4:41 pm

No clue, I just knew it once was proposed, I would love to know more though!

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spectre000
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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby spectre000 » November 12th, 2012, 4:43 pm

IDS cancelled its plans based on the soft commercial market at the time, around 1990. There were several major towers already in the works at that time. On top of the fact the vacancy rates were already pretty high (~20% IIRC).

Such a shame, one of the proposals was as tall as 1,025 feet. I've seen an elevation drawing of a 1,016 foot version. Very similar to Norwest/Wells Fargo Center. But it had small spires at each of the setbacks. Very cool looking.

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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby John » November 12th, 2012, 4:52 pm

The breathtaking and visionary IDS 2 proposal was hands down the best skyscraper design ever proposed in Minneapolis. It would have been a transformative development and a catalyst for growth in our downtown for decades. The tallest tower would make a fantastic prototype design for the future tallest building in Minneapolis with it's blend of art deco references combined with a highly modernistic attitude. A wonderful synthesis of the architectural vernacular of our tallest buildings.
Last edited by John on November 12th, 2012, 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nick
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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby Nick » November 12th, 2012, 4:55 pm

The breathtaking and visionary IDS 2 proposal was hands down the best skyscraper design ever proposed in Minneapolis. It would have completely transformed downtown and set off a remarkable urban renaissance unprecedented in the history of our city.
Necessary repost.
Nick Magrino
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John
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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby John » November 12th, 2012, 5:29 pm

The breathtaking and visionary IDS 2 proposal was hands down the best skyscraper design ever proposed in Minneapolis. It would have completely transformed downtown and set off a remarkable urban renaissance unprecedented in the history of our city.
Necessary repost.
Ha! I revised it to make it even more high drama verbiage! Lucky for you! ;)

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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby talindsay » November 12th, 2012, 5:51 pm

The breathtaking and visionary IDS 2 proposal was hands down the best skyscraper design ever proposed in Minneapolis. It would have completely transformed downtown and set off a remarkable urban renaissance unprecedented in the history of our city.
Necessary repost.
Elf, you might be my hero for that. Also, as a professionally-trained historian I have to say these kinds of grand, sweeping counterfactual statements bother me a lot. Here's the thing: if a single tower of that magnitude had opened at that time, there's no reason to assume it would have "set off a remarkable urban renaissance" - because cities are governed by complex economic models of supply and demand, not by architectural fans' dreams of towering downtowns. Downtown Minneapolis has maintained a pretty healthy office environment (at least from a commercial rent perspective) largely because supply has been kept reasonably close to demand, without a lot of big speculative projects. Minneapolis already has the fifth most Fortune 500 Companies headquartered here (source: CNN 2011) and there's no reason to assume there's a huge pent-up latent demand for new office space, especially at any point in the recent past. You can reasonably assume that a single big tower would have killed off several smaller office projects that *did* get built - it may not be a perfectly zero-sum game, but there's no reason to assume a single tower would create enough demand not to create vacancy elsewhere.

How many companies decided to move to Cleveland because they built the Key Tower? Last I checked, Cleveland didn't immediately turn around its rust-belt status by building a thousand-foot tower in 1991. Minneapolis' gross metropolitan product went from $110.7 billion in 1999 to $208.5 billion in 2011 (88% growth); by contrast, Cleveland's gross metropolitan product went from $75.0 billion in 1999 to $106.6 billion in 2011 (42% growth) (source: US Conference of Mayors). Obviously I chose a dramatic example, but the point is that tall buildings don't make cities winners.

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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby John » November 12th, 2012, 6:36 pm

^^ For both of you above, the history of Minneapolis did not begin in the 1990's ! lol! All you need to do is take a look at Philip Johnson's IDS tower to see the huge influence one building can have. It clearly paved the way for Wells Fargo, Capella, and other projects to happen and changed the whole dynamics of what could be built in Minneapolis. Certainly IDS 2 would have had a similar impact on this city and its future. All these current stick built apartment projects going up downtown would have been a laughable joke if IDS 2 was built. As I have said before, some of us on this forum do have historical perspective because we actually were living when these visionary proposals for Minneapolis were occuring. Sorry to tell you , but with age comes a broader perspective than just textbook wisdom.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby min-chi-cbus » November 12th, 2012, 7:17 pm

The breathtaking and visionary IDS 2 proposal was hands down the best skyscraper design ever proposed in Minneapolis. It would have been a transformative development and a catalyst for growth in our downtown for decades. The tallest tower would make a fantastic prototype design for the future tallest building in Minneapolis with it's blend of art deco references combined with a highly modernistic attitude. A wonderful synthesis of the architectural vernacular of our tallest buildings.
Holy shucks, I just realized why I like it so much -- it looks like the Waterview Tower proposal for Chicago (the 1,000 footer that was thin like this and all residential, but I don't think it ever got built)!

nasa35

Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby nasa35 » November 13th, 2012, 7:30 am

^^ For both of you above, the history of Minneapolis did not begin in the 1990's ! lol! All you need to do is take a look at Philip Johnson's IDS tower to see the huge influence one building can have. It clearly paved the way for Wells Fargo, Capella, and other projects to happen and changed the whole dynamics of what could be built in Minneapolis. Certainly IDS 2 would have had a similar impact on this city and its future. All these current stick built apartment projects going up downtown would have been a laughable joke if IDS 2 was built. As I have said before, some of us on this forum do have historical perspective because we actually were living when these visionary proposals for Minneapolis were occuring. Sorry to tell you , but with age comes a broader perspective than just textbook wisdom.
No, they're still "laughable".

Just wait when we have no more parking lots we will go: "what moron built 26 blocks of 4-6 story stick apartments in a loop???????"

Unity77
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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby Unity77 » November 13th, 2012, 9:06 am

Does anyone know where the IDS 2 was to be built (site)?

Does anyone know the name for each of the other two proposals?

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spectre000
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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby spectre000 » November 13th, 2012, 9:13 am

Does anyone know where the IDS 2 was to be built (site)?

Does anyone know the name for each of the other two proposals?
Landmarks Group and local developer Norman Kerr were pitching the Ritz Hotel block next to the Hennepin Cty Library. The hotel was demolished in 1990 in anticipation of securing IDS' lease.

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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby talindsay » November 13th, 2012, 9:40 am

^^ For both of you above, the history of Minneapolis did not begin in the 1990's ! lol! All you need to do is take a look at Philip Johnson's IDS tower to see the huge influence one building can have. It clearly paved the way for Wells Fargo, Capella, and other projects to happen and changed the whole dynamics of what could be built in Minneapolis. Certainly IDS 2 would have had a similar impact on this city and its future. All these current stick built apartment projects going up downtown would have been a laughable joke if IDS 2 was built. As I have said before, some of us on this forum do have historical perspective because we actually were living when these visionary proposals for Minneapolis were occuring. Sorry to tell you , but with age comes a broader perspective than just textbook wisdom.
Interesting, but you still present no evidence that building a physical structure somehow begets growth. And you shouldn't condescend to others based on a sense that you must be older than them.

You are right that IDS was groundbreaking for Minneapolis and opened up the city for upward expansion; but I think we can all agree that if the Hancock Tower had been built here instead, it would not have been healthy for the Twin Cities market of the time to have that much office space made available. As I mentioned before, a market has to be able to absorb the Class A office space it builds - every square foot built displaces an existing square foot, pushing prices downward as more options become available. New construction is expensive, and unprofitable buildings lead to big problems for a city. Please present some evidence that the Twin Cities market of the 1990s was healthy enough to absorb such a massive block of class A office space; vacancy rates in the various buildings by the late 90s were certainly high enough that it's hard to imagine that your claims could have held true.

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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby MNdible » November 13th, 2012, 10:09 am

All you need to do is take a look at Philip Johnson's IDS tower to see the huge influence one building can have. It clearly paved the way for Wells Fargo, Capella, and other projects to happen and changed the whole dynamics of what could be built in Minneapolis.
I love the IDS, but this canonizing of the building, the oft retold lore that it was somehow the sheer audacity of its architecture that showed the benighted masses the way forward into a brave new world of skyscrapers... it makes a good story, but that's about it. The 70's and 80's were a time of massive speculative build-out of office towers across the country, driven (as near as I understand it) by changes in the tax code rather than an awakening sense of verticality in the hinterlands.

By the time the last of the buildings started in the 80's was completed, Minneapolis (and most other cities around the country) was hugely overbuilt, which is why, even though the economy was doing quite well during most of that time, there was a huge lag in downtown office construction until the late 90's. Capella Tower was completed in 1992. The next office tower wasn't completed downtown until US Bancorp Center in 2000.

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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby Didier » November 13th, 2012, 11:41 am

the oft retold lore that it was somehow the sheer audacity of its architecture that showed the benighted masses the way forward into a brave new world of skyscrapers...
Lol

spearson
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Re: Old IDS 2 Proposal picture from early 90s..

Postby spearson » November 13th, 2012, 12:37 pm

Does anyone know where the IDS 2 was to be built (site)?

Does anyone know the name for each of the other two proposals?
Landmarks Group and local developer Norman Kerr were pitching the Ritz Hotel block next to the Hennepin Cty Library. The hotel was demolished in 1990 in anticipation of securing IDS' lease.
The Proposals put it on the Sheraton Hotel site (next to the library), the Ritz was on Washington and 2nd.

Edit, I stand corrected, it was the Sheraton Ritz Hotel. There was another older hotel also named the Ritz..


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