Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis (cancelled)

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Minneboy
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Minneboy » April 18th, 2015, 7:01 am

The premise is there for an economic catalyst just as we are seeing with the new Vikings Stadium. Knowing full well the WF project was already in conjunction with the stadium but there has been plenty of other new projects that have been started.

Plus I don't think anything presented is an actual project, just a stand in until the real projects come along. It's done all the time.

Didier
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Didier » April 18th, 2015, 12:17 pm

I thought this was a pretty fair critique of the team's public ask.

http://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy ... xemption-n

Also, the Star Tribune's editorial board came out strongly in favor of the proposal, including the property tax break.

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/edit ... 92601.html

BigIdeasGuy
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby BigIdeasGuy » April 18th, 2015, 12:23 pm

What United has put forward, I think, is a very reasonable proposal. I understand and respect the opposition to the proposal on principal but looking at from total cost of the of the subsidy it would be the smallest of any facility that has been built. Adding in the fact that the West Loop is a corner of MPLS that could use a big investment this is an easy yes for me.

The reality is that almost every hobby is subsided by government in one way or another. Park's are subsided, the arts are subsided, hunting and fishing are subsided, etc. I understand the important and unavoidable distinction that professional sports teams are private, for profit entities but at the end of the day I feel like so many of the conversations end up breaking down along the lines of "I don't care about XYZ so therefore XYZ shouldn't be subsidized but you can't stop subsidizing ABC because all my friends and I like ABC." I just hope people don't only base their support or opposition of different projects isn's solely based on the answer to "is this what I enjoy doing in my free time?"

I also find it interesting that the people who are against the property tax exemption for the soccer stadium aren't demanding the city sell the Target Center.

Wedgeguy
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Wedgeguy » April 18th, 2015, 6:43 pm

There is a very easy way to make zero taxes a possibility. They have to guarantee an increase in surrounding tax base of twice what tax payers will be losing. Very easy way to separate the wheat from the chafe. They claim there will be increase, then they can put some money down where their mouth is and invest to double the tax receipts with projects that will make it happen. Between United, Taylor, and McGuire they have the funds to make projects happen to increase the tax base.

If it is as good a deal as they say it is, they should be leading the way with showing their confidence by doing project to make up for the lose of tax base. Easy as 1,2 3.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby FISHMANPET » April 18th, 2015, 10:24 pm

What United has put forward, I think, is a very reasonable proposal. I understand and respect the opposition to the proposal on principal but looking at from total cost of the of the subsidy it would be the smallest of any facility that has been built. Adding in the fact that the West Loop is a corner of MPLS that could use a big investment this is an easy yes for me.
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Snelbian
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Snelbian » April 19th, 2015, 6:29 am

What United has put forward, I think, is a very reasonable proposal. I understand and respect the opposition to the proposal on principal but looking at from total cost of the of the subsidy it would be the smallest of any facility that has been built. Adding in the fact that the West Loop is a corner of MPLS that could use a big investment this is an easy yes for me.
"We've been screwed so hard in the past we'll be happy to only be screwed a little"
It's actually mind boggling how often I'm seeing that argument as though it's in any way persuasive.

mplsjaromir
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby mplsjaromir » April 19th, 2015, 7:56 am

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Snelbian
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Snelbian » April 19th, 2015, 8:36 am

There are probably some good arguments to be made in favor of the deal. It MIGHT mean foregoing some property tax in favor of other income streams down the road (MIGHT). It might help build identity and community in the neighborhood. It's an amenity for city life that we didn't have before.

But the two most common arguments I'm seeing are also two of the worst. "This is less bad than every other stadium deal" is not a plus. It's just less of a negative than it would otherwise be. And the second is the line that basically boils down to "This is the first redevelopment proposal for this site we've seen. Therefore, the choice is between this plan and not developing at all." We don't need to plan long-term development strategies around a false dichotomy of Option A: Nothing ever happens and Option B: Build a stadium. There's always option C: be patient.

If we could just eject those two arguments from the discussion I feel that the whole debate would be a lot more productive.

EDIT: Other terrible arguments being used include comparing current property taxes paid that would be lost to estimated tax income gained as though we can just ignore estimated property taxes that would normally be paid. And the "there are legal allowances for waving property taxes, therefore it happens all the time" line the Strib has been trying to push.

Speaking of which, I normally don't have very high expectations of the Strib. But I've gotta give them credit for disappointing me anyway with that cluster@$&# of an argument they tried to pass of as impartial.

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Nick
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Nick » April 19th, 2015, 9:36 am

In general, it's been a lot of fun watching people move their arguments around between the Vikings stadium shitshow and this...birdpoopshow? It's a much smaller show but still kinda fun.

Then, as now, my main observation is that the vast majority of people aren't really discussing any of this in good faith. If your argument is "I like soccer" or "I like football" or "I'm automatically suspicious of people from New Jersey" or "this will make us more like Portland," you may as well just say it, because it's all pretty transparent, even on the Internet.

(Generally, I agree with what Didier has been saying)
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FISHMANPET
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby FISHMANPET » April 19th, 2015, 9:55 am

Sacrebleu! Traitor!
(I don't really know what we're arguing about anymore anyway)

twinkess
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby twinkess » April 19th, 2015, 9:57 am

Sacrebleu! Traitor!
(I don't really know what we're arguing about anymore anyway)
You forgot: "J'accuse!"

Didier
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Didier » April 19th, 2015, 10:13 am

But the two most common arguments I'm seeing are also two of the worst. "This is less bad than every other stadium deal" is not a plus. It's just less of a negative than it would otherwise be.
This might just be parsing words, but I think the real argument is that the Minnesota United proposal is actually categorically different from the Vikings or Twins deals. That doesn't mean everybody should automatically accept the proposal, but it's kind of misleading to compare a $500 billion direct subsidy to a request for tax breaks.

(And when I say " the real argument," I understand that people are actually making the argument that Snelbian says, but stadium debates bring out a lot of clunky arguments on both sides)

Didier
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Didier » April 19th, 2015, 10:44 am

I kind of hesitate to post this, but after the whole discussion the past few days this note from Sid Hartman's column today seems relevant.

While nobody's first choice is ever to publicly subsidize a pro sports team, Sid's recollection shows that some pragmatism on the part of Minneapolis might have brought an NHL team to the Twin Cities for considerably cheaper than it ended up being. This is why I think hard-line "no money ever" is usually unrealistic and, in some cases, ultimately leads to worse deals for the public.**
Turned down Winnipeg
The recent vote by the Minneapolis City Council to add $24.5 million to money already allocated to do a first-class job remodeling Target Center reminded me of the chance for the arena to become home of the Winnipeg Jets in 1996, before the Xcel Energy Center was built in St. Paul.

Had the City Council voted to appropriate $15 million a year for four years for arena improvements, it would have happened. Wheelock Whitney, one of the great civic leaders in this town, made a fantastic appeal to the council in a speech at Target Center, pointing out that the politicians had contributed nothing to Met Stadium when it was home to the Twins and Vikings or the Met Center when the North Stars played there.

But the City Council turned down the appeal, and NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman, who wanted the Jets franchise to move here, allowed it to become the Phoenix Coyotes instead.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikin ... 57701.html
The above situation isn't directly comparable to the current situation with Minnesota United, but I think it's interesting nonetheless, especially considering Mayor Hodges' stance.


** By "worse deal," I am talking purely from a dollars spent perspective. Clearly renovating Target Center would have been cheaper than building Xcel Energy Center and would have better utilized the local infrastructure by adding 40+ NHL events each year and consolidating other arena events. However, many would argue that the Xcel's impact on downtown St. Paul was worth the extra investment (and many others would argue that it wasn't).

Rich
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Rich » April 20th, 2015, 2:52 pm

Senate votes 61-4 against state money for McGuire.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/sta ... 01961.html

MNdible
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby MNdible » April 20th, 2015, 3:46 pm

They're all so principled!

HuskyGrad
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby HuskyGrad » April 21st, 2015, 7:03 am

They're all so principled!
I hope tomorrow they'll final pass that amendment on banning funding for unicorn bridges since nobody asked for those either. :twisted:

dingo
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby dingo » April 21st, 2015, 9:10 pm

I assume everyone will be against giving Amazon tax breaks to build their facility as well?

http://www.startribune.com/business/300852681.html

Even though their facility will only impact 1000 MN residents....

Rich
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby Rich » April 22nd, 2015, 7:11 am

their facility will only impact 1000 MN residents
Only 1,000? Won’t this facility impact everyone in our area who orders from Amazon?

Apart from that, it’s a different kind of negotiation. Shakopee knows that if they don’t sweeten the deal with Amazon, another suburb undoubtedly will. Amazon has all the leverage.

But if we refuse to cover McGuire’s tax expenses, his other options are to build his stadium anyway with his own money, or give up his MLS dream entirely. He has no leverage. Why should we cave to his demands?

nfschauer
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby nfschauer » April 22nd, 2015, 7:22 am

It will all come down to the city/county anyways...

QuietBlue
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Re: Major League Soccer Stadium in Minneapolis

Postby QuietBlue » April 22nd, 2015, 10:38 am

Apart from that, it’s a different kind of negotiation. Shakopee knows that if they don’t sweeten the deal with Amazon, another suburb undoubtedly will. Amazon has all the leverage.

But if we refuse to cover McGuire’s tax expenses, his other options are to build his stadium anyway with his own money, or give up his MLS dream entirely. He has no leverage. Why should we cave to his demands?
I agree about caving to his demands, but if he were open to building it elsewhere, I can see other areas of the Twin Cities being willing to take the hit. I'm a little surprised that hasn't happened yet.


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