Vikings Stadium Legislation/Financing Package

[SixOneTwo]

Nick, please elaborate on your thoughts with respect to the legal merits of the lawsuit. I have yet to see a cogent argument in favor of the Supreme Court granting the petition; I certainly didn't find one in Mr. Mann's memoranda.

And, to be sure, this isn't about "hurrying up." This has been over a decade-long debate that was finally settled when the Governor put pen to paper in May 2012.

[mattaudio]

It was finally settled when four of seven yes votes on the council and the mayor left City Hall a few weeks ago.

[lordmoke]

Hey remember how there's another thread for this half of the discussion?

In construction news, it looks like they have the base for the first of the tower cranes installed near the rear of the site.

[MN_Build.org]

Ah yes, lets hurry up and give this convicted crook hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars

Seriously people?

You have to remember the Wilf's were found guilty in Civil Court, not Criminal Court. Labeling them as convicted crooks is a little much.

[twinkess]

Ah yes, lets hurry up and give this convicted crook hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars

Seriously people?

You have to remember the Wilf's were found guilty in Civil Court, not Criminal Court. Labeling them as convicted crooks is a little much.

Sorry, my bad He isn't a convicted crook. He was only found guilty of fraud, breach of contract and racketeering. Let's totally use regressive tax policies to increase his net worth by hundreds of millions of dollars!

[seanrichardryan]

... Let's totally use regressive tax policies to increase his net worth by hundreds of millions of dollars!

He might have a point there.

[Avian]

I think we should just let it go, and start planning for the even newer stadium that will replace this one in 30 years.

Farmer's Market, here we come!

[talindsay]

28 years, but they'll say they have been fighting for it for ten.

[MN_Build.org]

... Let's totally use regressive tax policies to increase his net worth by hundreds of millions of dollars!

It's the way modern economics works. It takes money to make money. By the state putting up $348 million and the city putting up a $150 million the Wilf's are making a $477 million private investment that get's pumped into the local economy that would not have been added to the local economy if the public investment was not made. It's simple, without the public investment, the local economy loses out on $477 million. Additionally with the project across the street, Ryan Companies is making a $400 million private investment to the local economy, which would not have been made without the public investment in the stadium project. Without the initial public investment the local economy loses out on $877 million. Wilf happens to be in a position to profit on the deal, you would be too if you had $477 million to invest. Stop whining, if you were running the state, there would be zero economic progress.

[Tyler]

... Let's totally use regressive tax policies to increase his net worth by hundreds of millions of dollars!

It's the way modern economics works. It takes money to make money. By the state putting up $348 million and the city putting up a $150 million the Wilf's are making a $477 million private investment that get's pumped into the local economy that would not have been added to the local economy if the public investment was not made. It's simple, without the public investment, the local economy loses out on $477 million. Additionally with the project across the street, Ryan Companies is making a $400 million private investment to the local economy, which would not have been made without the public investment in the stadium project. Without the initial public investment the local economy loses out on $877 million. Wilf happens to be in a position to profit on the deal, you would be too if you had $477 million to invest. Stop whining, if you were running the state, there would be zero economic progress.

Holy shit no.

But good news about the lawsuit.

[twinkess]

... Let's totally use regressive tax policies to increase his net worth by hundreds of millions of dollars!

It's the way modern economics works. It takes money to make money. By the state putting up $348 million and the city putting up a $150 million the Wilf's are making a $477 million private investment that get's pumped into the local economy that would not have been added to the local economy if the public investment was not made. It's simple, without the public investment, the local economy loses out on $477 million. Additionally with the project across the street, Ryan Companies is making a $400 million private investment to the local economy, which would not have been made without the public investment in the stadium project. Without the initial public investment the local economy loses out on $877 million. Wilf happens to be in a position to profit on the deal, you would be too if you had $477 million to invest. Stop whining, if you were running the state, there would be zero economic progress.

Wow ok... The Wilf family investment of $477 million is mostly coming from the local economy or sources that could have been tapped with the dome:
$100 million from personal seat licenses (buying the right to buy tickets!) that come right from the local economy (the fans here in MN)
$130-225 million over 30 years for naming rights (a lesser yet still significant amount could have been gotten for the Dome)
$250 million NFL loan that will be paid back by the increased revenue from the new stadium (higher ticket prices, ads inside the stadium and now the Vikings are getting the hotdog revenue, not the MSFC)
and a whopping $100 million ($50 million less than the taxpayers of Minneapolis are contributing) in cash from the Wilfs.

source

The rest of your post I don't have the time to take down right now.

[moda253]

Kleenex on sale at walmart. head down and git some seems like some of you are NEVER GOING TO STOP CRYING ABOUT THIS!

[Wedgeguy]

I will agree with both sides. On one side, a lot of the $477M is coming from money that would have possibly gone into spending in other areas of the economy. This is local money! The amount of money coming into the state from the NFL and the Wilfs is really not all that much as a percentage compared to the project as a whole. Will the Wilf's be building a house here in the city? Will they be buying cars, furniture, other items with the money they make from the Vikings here? Probably not, so we will not get that money put back into our economy. But those laborer, engineers, contractors will be spending those wages and profits here in the area. As Ryan is a local company, the subs and contracts will go primarily to local businesses. The $400M that will be the Wells Fargo complex is money that will be brought forward as far as development. As that is a project that would have been many years if not decades away from ever happening if ever. We are also not including the possible block #1 air rights development above the parking garage into the equation. We can only hope that this will be the catalyst for further redevelopment in the Elliot Park and DTE area in the next 5-10 years. With it bringing increased jobs, downtown residents, and a higher tax base. So as an economist would say, what is the multiplier for the amount of money that is made for each dollar spent in the overall economy with this money . This money will go to stores, car dealership, businesses, restaurants in the city as those wages are used to pay for living expenses, recreation, and life style.

Twinkess made valid points about how some of this money is being taken out of the economy. But the amount that will come back into the economy is above and beyond when you figure the dollar spent multiplier will most likely go above that in the long run. That is not counting the other projects which are shovel ready and those we hope will be brought to the development table in the future in this area. MN_Build is correct in you have to spend money to make money. That is basic economics. These wages are for stadium contract workers, workers for the sub contractors, wages for the people that will work to put together the supplies that need to be shipped, the drivers that haul materials to and from the site, so this money will not just be in one area, but will affect any supplier to the stadiums construction. Whether they are here in town, out in the burbs, or in outstate, that money will primarily be spent here in the state and create or maintain jobs here in the metro area and state.

The old adage is, you can't have your cake and eat it too. The benefit we have is that the Viking will not fold, Wells Fargo is strong and stable so they will not leave these towers. There is little reason to see this as a risk of failure like other projects where we would lose our investment with little to show in return. I'm for this project, but I wish that some of the details were better worked out and handled. In 2020 we can have a discussion on if this was a good move or not! If the Twins stadium is any bell weather, then I think we will have made a smart strategic move that will benefit the city as a whole. Will DTE be the new north loop in 2020, the crystal ball is still cloudy, but I think it will. IMHO

[MN_Build.org]

... Let's totally use regressive tax policies to increase his net worth by hundreds of millions of dollars!

It's the way modern economics works. It takes money to make money. By the state putting up $348 million and the city putting up a $150 million the Wilf's are making a $477 million private investment that get's pumped into the local economy that would not have been added to the local economy if the public investment was not made. It's simple, without the public investment, the local economy loses out on $477 million. Additionally with the project across the street, Ryan Companies is making a $400 million private investment to the local economy, which would not have been made without the public investment in the stadium project. Without the initial public investment the local economy loses out on $877 million. Wilf happens to be in a position to profit on the deal, you would be too if you had $477 million to invest. Stop whining, if you were running the state, there would be zero economic progress.

Wow ok... The Wilf family investment of $477 million is mostly coming from the local economy or sources that could have been tapped with the dome:
$100 million from personal seat licenses (buying the right to buy tickets!) that come right from the local economy (the fans here in MN)
$130-225 million over 30 years for naming rights (a lesser yet still significant amount could have been gotten for the Dome)
$250 million NFL loan that will be paid back by the increased revenue from the new stadium (higher ticket prices, ads inside the stadium and now the Vikings are getting the hotdog revenue, not the MSFC)
and a whopping $100 million ($50 million less than the taxpayers of Minneapolis are contributing) in cash from the Wilfs.

source

The rest of your post I don't have the time to take down right now.

You are correct in those figures, I will not argue with that. What I will argue with however, is the notion that "sources that could have been tapped with the dome:" We live in a world, fair or not, that people are more likely to spend money on the newest and greatest. The dome became irrelevant and outdated and needed to be replaced in order for the Vikings to compete financially in the future or else they were going to leave the Twin Cities. In a perfect world, a 30 year old stadium wouldn't be considered outdated but this is not a perfect world. So on that point a $477 private investment, local or not, could not have happened with the dome or without the substantial public investment. Nor would the other private investments that are now taking place in the area. If truly only $100 million is coming from the Wilf's pocket books then so be it, the area now is seeing true signs of development that the Dome never was able to do. It is still about $100 million more than any of us single handedly can contribute to the local economy.

[mplsjaromir]

As a taxpayer in Minneapolis I would have liked the opportunity to vote whether or not it would have been a good use in tax dollars. The city charter seemed to be pretty clear, but Rybak and the former city council used a technicality to get around said charter item.

If we are going to use the city's bonding authority to build new structures I think sewer and water mains have a higher priority, schools could have been refurbished, parks improved. Instead they are building a palace so mostly suburban rich people can party on weekends. I find that wrong. The reason why Dayton and Rybak went along with this is because they both want to win a governor's election sometime in the future. They do not want to look like effete wimps, so they went along with building a big manly football stadium, sad.

If the Vikings could only exist here with a massive subsidy, then maybe they should not be here.

[mattaudio]

According to Twitter, Doug Mann is planning to take his lawsuit to federal court.

[nordeast homer]

I can't decide if Doug Mann is addicted to losing or just likes seeing his name in print this much?

[mattaudio]

and convention goers, and anyone eating and drinking in dt restaurants and bars. anyone spending money downtown is a minneapolis taxpayer.

You really think it is worth taxing everyone in Minneapolis for something we absolutely don't need and which doesn't benefit the city, in order for us to also tax non-Minneapolis guests for something they may not need? For real? I can think of a million things we need more than a stadium, and many of those would benefit visitors too.

[FISHMANPET]

Minneapolis is certainly taking one on the chin, and I don't know specifically how much the city is paying, and how much property tax we'll gain from the development around the stadium, but the region is much better off with the stadium on a heavy transit node than it would be in Arden Hills.

[FranklinAveFixation]

Great summary of the whole situation.

Sniffing for Dollars at Home of the Vikings

“They’re running circles around us like we’re rubes,” former Gov. Arne Carlson said.

To be an N.F.L. owner is glorious indeed.