Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

[nate]

Maybe it is my ox being gored, but the marathon has the following attributes:
1) It is free to attend.
2) It celebrates athletic achievements of ordinary people from all walks of life
3) It brings a sense of civic togetherness for both spectators and runners that happens rarely, if ever, outside the marathon.

In short, the marathon is different.

Oh please. This is no different than any other event, be it sports, the winter carnival, the state fair, music festivals or any number of civic and/or celebratory events

The marathon is not different. It only seems different to those heavily invested in it.

Note that this is not the same as saying the marathon doesn't matter. It matters very much, which is why it's a good target for BLM.

Fair enough. I still dislike this particular tactic but broadly support the group's aims.

[David Greene]

At this point, it frequently seems like there is no way that BLM can behave that doesn't immediately provide some source of profound disappointment for white America. Hardly surprising that the general reaction from the movement, then, seems to be "too bad".

-1

[seamonster]

Will they let the Kenyans finish/win the race at least?

(This might not be as funny as I originally thought. I'm trying to picture in my head how this protest could turn into a meaningful experience that changes hearts/minds and foments change...but I'm struggling to see it - especially if the strategy is to prevent people from finishing. The comments section in the Star Tribune is already displaying a blistering backlash.)

[schmitzm03]

Oh please. This is no different than any other event, be it sports, the winter carnival, the state fair, music festivals or any number of civic and/or celebratory events

The marathon is not different. It only seems different to those heavily invested in it.

Note that this is not the same as saying the marathon doesn't matter. It matters very much, which is why it's a good target for BLM.

Isn't the fact that essentially everybody who participates in the marathon is actually heavily invested in it precisely what makes it different? For all of the other events you list I could see a BLM protest being perceived much differently and consequently being much more effective, in large part because most of the people participating in them probably did not spend countless hours over the past months preparing for them (i.e., they weren't heavily invested in them).

Regardless of your take on BLM's strategy and tactics overall, it seems this event in particular may be more harmful to the cause than supportive. It seems telling that the legal chairwoman of the NAACP in Minneapolis, Ashley Oliver, is disassociating herself from this event: http://www.startribune.com/black-lives- ... 330034841/.

[mplser]

while I don't disagree that this protest is probably counterproductive to their cause, the comment section of Startribune in probably not the best barometer for how the public feels about something, seamonster. there's some pretty horrible stuff said on there on a regular basis.

[amiller92]

Regardless of your take on BLM's strategy and tactics overall, it seems this event in particular may be more harmful to the cause than supportive.

Which is what people said about the Fair protest. And every other protest.

From the outside, I think it's important to be very careful about substituting my judgment of what's harmful versus helpful for those who are organizing. They really probably do know more about it than me. Also, I try to remember they are not running a popularity contest.

[Didier]

What's also telling about that Star Tribune article is that the Black Lives Matter spokesman declined an interview request, and the resulting story was 900 words that never mentioned the issue BLM is protesting. There is one passing instance to "police brutality," but that reference is made by the local NAACP chairwoman who is saying that the protest has "no connection" to that issue.

If you're an advocacy group, short of actually creating change, isn't communicating your message the most important job?

Even in articles where BLM did talk to reporters, the stated goals aren't exactly clear. Here's an MPR story in which the protest organizer fails to convey a specific motive besides, in MPR's words, getting "runners to think about a larger issue." Then there was the State Fair in which BLM allowed the "fry like bacon" chant to become a dominant narrative by failing to immediately condemn it. If you looked closely, there was a specific issue being protested during the LRT stoppage the other day, but even then the BLM tactics overshadowed the awareness for the cause. The Star Tribune article waited until the 21st paragraph to mention the reason for protesting.

I just think in order to be an effective movement, you must do a much better job of getting people to understand and talk about your grievance. Knowing how to advocate effectively in the press is a vital part of that. Black Lives Matter, on the other hand, more often succeeds in getting people to talk about everything but their cause. I'm truly confused how somebody could read today's Star Tribune article and come away thinking BLM's response advanced their cause.

[schmitzm03]

Regardless of your take on BLM's strategy and tactics overall, it seems this event in particular may be more harmful to the cause than supportive.

Which is what people said about the Fair protest. And every other protest.

From the outside, I think it's important to be very careful about substituting my judgment of what's harmful versus helpful for those who are organizing. They really probably do know more about it than me. Also, I try to remember they are not running a popularity contest.

You're not really arguing anything. You're simply responding by stating a logical fallacy (i.e., that's similar to what somebody said about a different event). Simply because people said something about the Fair protest has nothing to do with my assessment of this action. I'm talking about this protest, which is different. I actually think the Fair protest served a purpose and on the whole did it well.

Also, it isn't just me how thinks this is going to be harmful, but some of BLM's own members (as noted in the STRIB article I posted). Moreover, since social movements are generally trying to change public perception/understanding about some injustice so as to enact some change in policy, law, or society in general, I think it is actually very important how people outside of the movement perceive these actions. If this particular action were directly or symbolically related to the injustice they were trying to bring to light or the specific change they were trying to make I think people would perceive it much differently. As it is, I can't imagine how they are going to make the connection for people. Maybe they'll do something brilliant, but my fear is that (as indicated by some of the organizers) they will try to prevent people from finishing and there will actually be some sort of physical conflict. The people in the race will not have all their wits about them after running 26 miles. Their supporters watching them are probably going to be somewhat protective of their exhausted friends/family. I don't see how this ends well for anybody unless BLM is just threatening to disrupt the finish line for publicity's sake and ends up protesting peacefully. That would be great, but from all I've read it sounds like that isn't their expressed intent.

[Nick]

An honest to Pete question: Are similar things going on across the country? I can recall something about protesters at a Cardinals game, plus that Sanders rally in Seattle, but is there similar activity going on in Chicago or New York or Los Angeles? Not protests, but actively distrupting various events to draw attention. I like to think that I'm a pretty heavy Content Consumer and I can't think of much I've heard of--I think there were a number of freeway closures a little while back right?

[amiller92]

You're not really arguing anything.

I'm arguing that these responses - why aren't these people doing what I think they should be doing - are symptom of the problem. Sometimes, they are a deliberate strategy to deflect from the issues being raised. Other times, they are innocent reaction that has the same effect.

If you don't mean that effect (and on this, I really think people don't), then don't engage in the criticism. Don't lecture them about what they should do better. Even if you knew, which you do not, it doesn't help.

Maybe they'll do something brilliant

Why doesn't your thought end here?

but my fear...

My fear is abduction by Pentecostal Space Aliens. I sure hope they don't show up at the marathon.

Which is to say lots of people are reacting to this by imagine how bad things could be. Why? Why not save your complaints until you see what actually happens? Or, if you're really concerned, get involved with the organizing and advocate for the strategies you think are best.

is that (as indicated by some of the organizers) they will try to prevent people from finishing and there will actually be some sort of physical conflict.

Why hasn't BLM's track record to date earned any benefit of the doubt? Have there been physical conflict at any of the prior protests?

[Snelbian]

Why hasn't BLM's track record to date earned any benefit of the doubt? Have there been physical conflict at any of the prior protests?

Absolutely none. Oddly, I still see Strib commenters turning around and saying that blocking traffic (while black?) is a form of violence. Never let facts get in the way of a good boogeyman narrative.

[schmitzm03]

You're not really arguing anything.

I'm arguing that these responses - why aren't these people doing what I think they should be doing - are symptom of the problem. Sometimes, they are a deliberate strategy to deflect from the issues being raised. Other times, they are innocent reaction that has the same effect.

If you don't mean that effect (and on this, I really think people don't), then don't engage in the criticism. Don't lecture them about what they should do better. Even if you knew, which you do not, it doesn't help.

Wow, I said that your argument was a logical fallacy and, thus, not really an argument at all. Although you have now expounded on your thoughts a bit, you make some incredible leaps. Do you know me? No...you do not. Why would you assume I am basing my response on "people doing what I think they should be doing" and "a deliberate strategy to deflect from the issues being raised." How could you possible claim to know my intentions? You obviously cannot.

That being said, you have no right to tell me what I can and cannot criticize. Moreover, again you engage in logical fallacies by criticizing me for criticizing BLM. If I don't have the right to criticize BLM, why then do you have the right to criticize me? Seriously, you appear to be resorting to authoritarian and megalomaniac thinking.

What else are you assuming? How do think your assumptions affect the way you are engaging the people who have viewpoints on this issue that differ from you? Do you think they could be making you less than objective? It seems pretty obvious from your response to me that they are making you jump to completely unsubstantiated conclusions.

Maybe they'll do something brilliant

Why doesn't your thought end here?

I don't know...maybe because I'm a critical thinker and am actually engaging with the specific event they are planning and applying my in-depth knowledge of social movements? What else is an undergrad poli sci degree with a focus on social movements good for?

but my fear...

My fear is abduction by Pentecostal Space Aliens. I sure hope they don't show up at the marathon.

Which is to say lots of people are reacting to this by imagine how bad things could be. Why? Why not save your complaints until you see what actually happens? Or, if you're really concerned, get involved with the organizing and advocate for the strategies you think are best.

Yet again with the logical fallacies (false equivalence). Do you really think physical confrontation between protesters trying to block the finish line of a marathon is as likely as being abducted by aliens? That explains a lot...

is that (as indicated by some of the organizers) they will try to prevent people from finishing and there will actually be some sort of physical conflict.

Why hasn't BLM's track record to date earned any benefit of the doubt? Have there been physical conflict at any of the prior protests?

I'm not aware of any physical altercations to date, no, but since one of the the organizers of this action actually said that was their plan...I guess I'm taking his word for it. What else would you suggest I do? Here's what Rashad Turner actually said: ""I don’t think that us allowing them to finish the race would make them wake up enough," Turner said. "I think that life has to be disrupted. "

Basically, I don't think BLM controls whether or not physical confrontation happens...my belief is that if they attempt to prevent runners from finishing (physically), which is what Turner clearly states they intend to do, the likelihood of physical confrontation is dramatically increased. This would be horrible for everybody involved. I'm sorry if taking Turner at his word, applying that knowledge to my understanding of social interactions, and concluding that the outcome is likely to be less than ideal for everyone involved is frustrating you.

If, on the other hand, Turner is just raising the stakes for the sake of drumming up media attention, fantastic. Good for him and BLM. Is it really wrong for me to say that I hope they take the less confrontational road in this instance than the potentially confrontational road that has been expressed by Turner?

[Scott Wood]

At this point, it frequently seems like there is no way that BLM can behave that doesn't immediately provide some source of profound disappointment for white America. Hardly surprising that the general reaction from the movement, then, seems to be "too bad".

They could protest in a way that is communicative, rather than trying to maximize the disruptiveness of the protests. Or, they could target their disruption at the people from whom they are seeking change, rather than the general public who I would hope largely already agrees with their message.

They could also recognize that the Saint Paul Police Department is rolling out body cameras to increase accountability.

And is Marcus Golden really a case they want to make one of their prime examples?

[LakeCharles]

The governor and Mayor Coleman are now both meeting with BLM over this. So I guess it worked? Too early to say of course, but they are certainly getting some exposure to big names.

[David Greene]

[Or, they could target their disruption at the people from whom they are seeking change, rather than the general public who I would hope largely already agrees with their message.

HA! Have you read the Strib comments on any BLM story?

The public needs to be disrupted. The public is the entity that can effect change.

[Tyler]

HA! Have you read the Strib comments

The worst reasoning anyone has ever given for doing anything -- ever.

[amiller92]

Do you know me? No...you do not.

You're not following along. It's not about you.

How could you possible claim to know my intentions? You obviously cannot.

Which is why I did not.

That being said, you have no right to tell me what I can and cannot criticize.

You can do what you want, but when you do this, you are part of the problem. You drown out the message and talk over those with very legitimate grievances that you purport to agree with.

since one of the the organizers of this action actually said that was their plan...

Feel free to cite anyone saying they were planning physical altercation with runner(s). (What was that about logical fallacies and assumptions?)

[Tyler]

What else could be meant by "I don’t think that us allowing them to finish the race would make them wake up enough"? Serious question.

[amiller92]

What else could be meant by "I don’t think that us allowing them to finish the race would make them wake up enough"? Serious question.

When they blocked the light rail, or 35W, or Snelling or Washington Avenue, did they forms gangs to physically wrangle each passing vehicle to a halt?

If they end up going through with trying to block the race, which it sounds like they probably aren't going to end up trying to do, I'd assume they will do it as they did their other actions.

[Tyler]

Huh? We are talking about people running.

Why is it so hard for you to concede a single point?