"The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparities

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby xandrex » February 19th, 2015, 9:59 am

I cannot agree with assertions that Johnathan Chait makes about political correctness. Writers like him have felt the squeeze from "the left" about their writing and have written lengthy responses about how their ideas are challenged, blaming overreacting liberals. Many have speculated that this has stemmed from the events that happened at The New Republic, a magazine in which he was senior editor.
Chait has a lot of problems, that's for sure. I've always taken a slightly different read (or maybe just focus) on his article, which is namely that so-called "PC culture," while admirable, has both stifled discussions (people fear even a minor slip up that will have them excoriated) and hampered progress (how many more people could we have fighting against racism, sexism, and homophobia if actors within these movements did a better job educating rather than taking down). Who wants to join a movement when the rules are obscure and can result in isolation and retribution?

A pretty common response to Chait has been, "Well yeah, he makes a half-valid point, but being attacked for not being PC isn't as bad as the discrimination these groups are facing." That's very much true, but as the old saying goes, two wrongs don't make a right. This isn't a zero sum game. We can fight for expanding the rights and inclusion of marginalized groups AND bring people into the fold by gently educating them. Calling someone out in a rude way doesn't solve the problem any quicker.
Will get back to this at the end of the day I'm sure, but the point I was trying to make was more along these lines.
^Yeah. Pretty much this.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby EOst » February 19th, 2015, 10:12 am

I actually read this before reading Chait's article and completed sided with this guy (and Chait). I'm not familiar with Chait's entire back catalog but to me he's not a jerk or a-hole for writing the article. He's completely right that it stifles debate. The social justice warriors while completely noble in their cause, need to do a better job of identifying overt racism and hatred from other forms, like institutional racism. If neonazis are marching down the street, they deserve ridicule and public shaming. However, when someone lacks an understanding of the struggles of blacks in MPLS or hold stereotypical views of them, they shouldn't be lambasted as the second coming of David Duke.
While I am sympathetic, I think a lot of this thread is somewhat missing the point.

If you believe, as I do, that various types of prejudice (racial, gender, sex, class, etc.) are basically omnipresent in society (even if we can quibble about how strongly), calling out the David Dukes and the neo-Nazi marches isn't enough. David Duke isn't the problem; normal, well-intentioned people who still have unconscious prejudice are.

For a lot of people in this country, saying that people need to focus on "the real issues" is really a way of dodging the question of their own culpability. If you're a guy who puts his hand on his wallet when he passes a black guy on the street, it's easy to justify it: "the guy looked sketchy," "I'm just being cautious," "it doesn't hurt anyone," and so on. But it's never just that. That black man notices when you look at him suspiciously, and it affects his life, his relationships with (overwhelmingly white and privileged) authority figures, and a thousand other things that are invisible to those of us who don't face those kinds of problems. It also encourages you--and those you deal with--to respond to people like him similarly in other situations.

That's one of the biggest problems I have with Freddie deBoer's piece. His first example is this:
I have seen, with my own two eyes, a 19 year old white woman — smart, well-meaning, passionate — literally run crying from a classroom because she was so ruthlessly brow-beaten for using the word “disabled.” Not repeatedly. Not with malice. Not because of privilege. She used the word once and was excoriated for it. She never came back. I watched that happen.
The easy thing for us to say is: how horrible! That poor girl!

But then you think about it. We don't have any of the details of this story. What we have, instead, is Mr. deBoer's frame. This girl is presented to us with a host of positive characteristics: she's "smart," "well-meaning," not acting out of prejudice, not malicious, etc., while whoever disagreed with her use of the word "disabled" gets comments which lead you in the other way: "ruthless," "brow-beating," "excoriation." From deBoer's characterization, of course she's sympathetic, but that's because we aren't really getting a true story, we're getting one man's perspective. We don't even know what they were talking about, or who else was in the room!

I teach Greek and Roman literature at the U, texts which are full to the brim with sexual violence and misogyny, racist and xenophobic language, justifications and praise of slavery, and a host of other unsavory things. Sometimes, when interrogating the text, people can end up interrogating each other. Sometimes people say ignorant things. Sometimes, people make mistakes. What I very rarely see--actually, only once--is the sort of interaction Mr. deBoer says occurred here, with outright hostility. What usually happens... is more like this:

Person 1: blah blah blah Disabled blah blah blah
Person 2: You shouldn't say "disabled," it shames people/gives the wrong impression/whatever
Person 1: That wasn't my intention!
Person 2: Intention isn't the only thing that matters
~~anger~~

When people are confronted with something like this, there is an almost inevitable tendency to push back. Almost no-one will actually admit to themselves that they have prejudice, or that their prejudice changes the way they interact with disadvantaged groups. Instead, people get hurt, or they get angry, or they get defensive. Situations escalate. As a teacher, my job is to intervene (which Mr. deBoer apparently failed to do), to change the course of the conversation, to defuse it while not undermining whatever people have expressed or felt. It's hard, and yes, it can lead to hard feelings. But what's the alternative?

One of the most problematic things about Mr. deBoer's example is the fact that ableism and related concepts are still controversial enough that some of us can legitimately wonder whether "disabled" really warrants the trouble. If we changed the setting a little bit, though, it changes everything:
I have seen, with my own two eyes, a 19 year old white woman — smart, well-meaning, passionate — literally run crying from a classroom because she was so ruthlessly brow-beaten for using the word “nigger.” Not repeatedly. Not with malice. Not because of privilege. She used the word once and was excoriated for it. She never came back. I watched that happen.
Is this girl as sympathetic? She used a racist term, got called out for it, and was so offended to be called out that she left the room crying. Does it matter if she's smart or well-meaning or passionate? Would it matter if she were from some community in remote Appalachia where that was "just the word people use"?

Of course, in an ideal world, I would love to be able to tell someone that they're being prejudiced without the potential for hurt feelings or embarrassment or anger. But if you were a black person in that room, would you really think that the potential squeamishness of some (mostly white) people is a good reason to avoid having that discussion?

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby NickP » February 19th, 2015, 10:24 am

Well said ^^

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby WHS » February 19th, 2015, 10:54 am

When people are confronted with something like this, there is an almost inevitable tendency to push back. Almost no-one will actually admit to themselves that they have prejudice, or that their prejudice changes the way they interact with disadvantaged groups. Instead, people get hurt, or they get angry, or they get defensive. Situations escalate. As a teacher, my job is to intervene (which Mr. deBoer apparently failed to do), to change the course of the conversation, to defuse it while not undermining whatever people have expressed or felt. It's hard, and yes, it can lead to hard feelings. But what's the alternative?

One of the most problematic things about Mr. deBoer's example is the fact that ableism and related concepts are still controversial enough that some of us can legitimately wonder whether "disabled" really warrants the trouble. If we changed the setting a little bit, though, it changes everything:
I have seen, with my own two eyes, a 19 year old white woman — smart, well-meaning, passionate — literally run crying from a classroom because she was so ruthlessly brow-beaten for using the word “nigger.” Not repeatedly. Not with malice. Not because of privilege. She used the word once and was excoriated for it. She never came back. I watched that happen.
Is this girl as sympathetic? She used a racist term, got called out for it, and was so offended to be called out that she left the room crying. Does it matter if she's smart or well-meaning or passionate? Would it matter if she were from some community in remote Appalachia where that was "just the word people use"?

Of course, in an ideal world, I would love to be able to tell someone that they're being prejudiced without the potential for hurt feelings or embarrassment or anger. But if you were a black person in that room, would you really think that the potential squeamishness of some (mostly white) people is a good reason to avoid having that discussion?
Okay, I'm sorry, this is ridiculous. You aren't participating in "ableism" if you say the word "disabled." In your hypothetical version of deBoer's story, the equivalent would have been "black," not an actual racial slur. Honestly, this sort of attitude is exactly the unhelpful thing that deBoer and Chait are talking about. Someone said something that conflicts with an elaborate mental hierarchy of progressive political correctness, and now they have two choices: either confess their sins of implicit bias, or deny them, and dig themselves further. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. In this absurd political schema, there's no provision for things like "honest misunderstanding" or "semantic disagreement" or even "slightly different political views."

I mean, again, think about what you've said: that in one person's mind, "disabled" is a neutral term, and in another, it's the equivalent of a racial slur. And you're saying that, not only should we accept the second person's view as self-evidently correct, but we should dignify it to such an extent that anyone who disagrees -- even accidentally or unknowingly! -- can be personally attacked for it, so much so that they run crying out of the room. This precisely the sort of toxic, kneejerk ideological dogpiling that Chait was talking about. Precisely.

EDIT: And as to your suggestion that deBoer should have intervened, you should read his later posts. I'm a regular reader and he addressed exactly this criticism a number of times (short version: he wasn't in charge of the classroom at the time). But more to the point, this isn't the point. He's complaining about a corrosive habit of mind and you want to make it about him personally, which could not be less relevant, but is basically par for the course for the progressive purity brigade.
Last edited by WHS on February 19th, 2015, 11:23 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby WHS » February 19th, 2015, 11:03 am

This is all tangential to disparities in Minneapolis, though. Problems like residential segregation and school boundaries are structural and not interpersonal. The people complaining about them are almost invariably from sober organizations like the NAACP or policy-oriented academics like Myron Orfield. When's the last time you saw some high-strung social media leftist discussing the Met Council's role in creating or reducing segregation? The answer is never, because to the grievance warriors, the topic is just impossibly boring. If anything, all the focus on ephemeral cultural issues undermines attempts to fix structural inequalities, by sucking all the heat and light away from real policy solutions.

EDIT: As this very thread illustrates, in fact. A good dicussion of very real, very tangible inequalities in Minneapolis slowly getting sucked in the vortex of "should we be allowed to say 'disabled' in a classroom without getting shouted at?' So no more social justice talk for me.
Last edited by WHS on February 19th, 2015, 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby Didier » February 19th, 2015, 11:04 am

In discussions of race, I’ve found the example of Arthur Ashe to be fascinating.

In short, Ashe was a black kid from segregated Richmond, yet he managed to navigate his way to a successful career in tennis, a sport that was particularly white and upper class (and discriminatory). More important than his tennis career, though, he became a really powerful activist about a lot of important black issues, ranging from apartheid to education.

When Ashe learned that there was no definitive history of black sports in the United States, he sat down and wrote a three-volume set of books called “A Hard Road to Glory.” When Ashe wanted to protest apartheid, he went to South Africa and challenged the government and the press by playing in a tennis tournament there. And when he wanted to improve education for blacks, he became a professor at a historically black college.

I say all of this to emphasize that he was actually creating change, not some sort of blowhard.

So when I learned that Ashe was opposed to affirmative action, it really surprised me. As a white, middle-upper class liberal from the suburbs, I had always just agreed that affirmative action was a good policy that any reasonable, progressive person should support. Ashe’s opinion made me think about it.

His reasoning essentially came down to society — and blacks themselves — creating lower expectations for the black community. (Of course his opinion was much more nuanced than that, but the key objection was to quotas). And, importantly, one reason he came to this opinion was because he was a college professor himself and saw first-hand the low quality work. Rather than sending unprepared black students to college and grading them on a curve, his dream was to better prepare blacks so they could compete in college and then the real world.

I use this example because Arthur Ashe was a black man who achieved a lot of success despite growing up in the segregated South, and he was undeniably a huge force for good within the black community. And while the affirmative action opinion wasn’t at all popular among blacks then, I feel like today’s America wouldn’t even be able to discuss it at any sort of useful level.

The right would strip the nuance out of the opinion and say, “See, this proves it, a black person says affirmative action is bad!” And the left would discredit him and reject the points outright. That routine seems to develop around any discussion of race. A conservative simplistically blames black culture, and a liberal outright rejects the notion that the blame lies anywhere short of racism. And on and on.

My point isn’t to claim that Arthur Ashe was right or that I know what’s best for the black community. More so I guess I just have a lot of appreciation for people like Ashe who are smart and active while also being independent thinkers. These are the people who we need as leaders, but their voices seem almost impossible to hear.

His is a really amazing story for anyone interested.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby clf » February 19th, 2015, 11:25 am

If you want to understand this issue in the context of Minneapolis perhaps visit one of the Priority schools, (MN Department of EDucation Multiple Measurement Ratings.) which are all in high poverty districts. It is a real eye opener.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby WHS » February 19th, 2015, 11:29 am

If you want to understand this issue in the context of Minneapolis perhaps visit one of the Priority schools, (MN Department of EDucation Multiple Measurement Ratings.) which are all in high poverty districts. It is a real eye opener.
Do you mind elaborating? I'm curious what you mean by this.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby clf » February 19th, 2015, 11:41 am

Elaborate on? Priority schools? Measurement Ratings? Or why visiting a high poverty school would be an eye opener? My sister is a teacher in one of these schools. The quality of education suffers when children in poverty have issues that need addressing other than what is on the lesson plan. Often they are under-dressed for the cold, or hungry, or homeless. These issues make it hard for children to focus on school work until these issues are dealt with. My sister ends up spending a lot of the class period time just trying to help with the basic needs of her kids. This effects the entire school and the quality of education. This problem is currently called the achievement gap. If you are interested in more information R.T. Rybak is the Executive Director of Generation Next, an organization working on this issue in Minneapolis.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby EOst » February 19th, 2015, 11:44 am

Okay, I'm sorry, this is ridiculous. You aren't participating in "ableism" if you say the word "disabled."
Why not? What gives you the power to dictate what is ableist and what isn't? And what are those scare quotes supposed to mean, unless it's that you don't believe in ableism?
In your hypothetical version of deBoer's story, the equivalent would have been "black," not an actual racial slur. Honestly, this sort of attitude is exactly the unhelpful thing that deBoer and Chait are talking about. Someone said something that conflicts with an elaborate mental hierarchy of progressive political correctness, and now they have two choices: either confess their sins of implicit bias, or deny them, and dig themselves further. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. In this absurd political schema, there's no provision for things like "honest misunderstanding" or "semantic disagreement" or even "slightly different political views."

I mean, again, think about what you've said: that in one person's mind, "disabled" is a neutral term, and in another, it's the equivalent of a racial slur. And you're saying that, not only should we accept the second person's view as self-evidently correct, but we should dignify it to such an extent that anyone who disagrees -- even accidentally or unknowingly! -- can be personally attacked for it, so much so that they run crying out of the room. This precisely the sort of toxic, kneejerk ideological dogpiling that Chait was talking about. Precisely.
What you're effectively saying is that only certain kinds of people get to determine what is offensive and what isn't. Plenty of people have explained how the term "disabled" is problematic. See, for example, this post from the American Psychological Association, which is actually the first thing that comes up if you Google "why is disabled problematic."

If an African American man told you he thought your use of the word "black" was offensive, would you dismiss it?
EDIT: And as to your suggestion that deBoer should have intervened, you should read his later posts. I'm a regular reader and he addressed exactly this criticism a number of times (short version: he wasn't in charge of the classroom at the time). But more to the point, this isn't the point. He's complaining about a corrosive habit of mind and you want to make it about him personally, which could not be less relevant, but is basically par for the course for the progressive purity brigade.
I can only speak to my experience as an instructor. If he wasn't in a position of authority in that classroom, that's a different matter, though this is all tangential to my actual point.
Last edited by EOst on February 19th, 2015, 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby LakeCharles » February 19th, 2015, 11:44 am

A good dicussion of very real, very tangible inequalities in Minneapolis slowly getting sucked in the vortex of "should we be allowed to say 'disabled' in a classroom without getting shouted at?' So no more social justice talk for me.
There is a big difference between "should we be allowed to say 'disabled' in a classroom without getting shouted at?" and "should we consciously examine the ways in which the language we use affects our dialogue on subjects?"

You (and others) view it mostly as the first, and find anecdotes and ideas to back it up. I (and others) view it more as the second, and find anecdotes and ideas to back it up. So I get the idea that if we could only just cut to the chase instead of analyzing how we talk we'd get more done. And I'm sympathetic to some degree. But I think it should also be acknowledged that others are not trying to just find a way to yell at people. They believe we need a fundamental alteration of how we view things before changes can be made.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby Snelbian » February 19th, 2015, 11:49 am

Language is an overarching framework that all social interaction takes place in. Its structures affect how we communicate and interact with each other and the environment. This is well-established fact. So at the end of the day, what words we choose very definitely matter when we're talking about power politics and social justice.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby WHS » February 19th, 2015, 11:59 am

Why not? What gives you the power to dictate what is ableist and what isn't? And what are those scare quotes supposed to mean, unless it's that you don't believe in ableism?

What you're effectively saying is that only certain kinds of people get to determine what is offensive and what isn't. Plenty of people have explained how the term "disabled" is problematic. See, for example, this post from the American Psychological Association, which is actually the first thing that comes up if you Google "why is disabled problematic."

If an African American man told you he thought your use of the word "black" was offensive, would you dismiss it?

I can only speak to my experience as an instructor. If he wasn't in a position of authority in that classroom, that's a different matter, though this is all tangential to my actual point.
Fine, but I'll try to keep this short: what you're describing isn't dialogue. It's self-aggrandizing retribution: "Let me show you how much better educated I am, by policing your language."

If a black guy said he thought the word "black" was offensive (or, you know, "problematic," whatever that means), sure, I'd consider it. Ultimately I'd probably keep using it, because it's a common term and I want people to understand the words I use. That's a dialogue.

But if someone angrily accused me of prejudice for using the term "black," I'd dismiss them out of hand as unreasonable and not worth dealing with. And that's what you're describing.

Incidentally, the term "disabled" appears no fewer than 67 times on the wikipedia page for "disability." It also bears an obvious relationship to the term "disability," which itself a commonly-used term, including in legal, official environments. So I'm a little skeptical that it's quite as self-evidently indicative of bias or prejudice as you suggest, to say the least.
Last edited by WHS on February 19th, 2015, 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby WHS » February 19th, 2015, 12:04 pm

Language is an overarching framework that all social interaction takes place in. Its structures affect how we communicate and interact with each other and the environment. This is well-established fact. So at the end of the day, what words we choose very definitely matter when we're talking about power politics and social justice.
No one is saying words don't matter. But they don't have magic power, either. They're an imprecise tool. Referring to someone as "disabled" instead of "persons with disabilities" will not meaningfully alter the obstacles faced by these people. Time spent policing language, beyond a basic effort to be both precise and respectful, is often time wasted. And that's before you even get into the coded politics of language policing, where one group convinces itself that it is more enlightened than the next, because it knows the preferred-nomenclature-of-the-month.

I work in civil rights, and I'll eat my hat if word choice has ever been either the cause of or solution to a major inequality in society.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby EOst » February 19th, 2015, 12:09 pm

Fine, but I'll try to keep this short: what you're describing isn't dialogue. It's self-aggrandizing retribution: "Let me show you how much better educated I am, by policing your language."

If a black guy said he thought the word "black" was offensive (or, you know, "problematic," whatever that means), sure, I'd consider it. Ultimately I'd probably keep using it, because it's a common term and I want people to understand the words I use. That's a dialogue.

But if someone angrily accused me of prejudice for using the term "black," I'd dismiss them out of hand as unreasonable and not worth dealing with. And that's what you're describing.

Incidentally, the term "disabled" appears no fewer than 67 times on the wikipedia page for "disability." It also bears an obvious relationship to the term "disability," which itself a commonly-used term, including in legal, official environments. So I'm a little skeptical that it's quite as self-evidently indicative of bias or prejudice as you suggest, to say the least.
What this comes down to is that you've claimed for yourself the right to decide whether other people are allowed to be offended by terminology that you don't personally find offensive.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby EOst » February 19th, 2015, 12:12 pm

No one is saying words don't matter. But they don't have magic power, either. They're an imprecise tool. Referring to someone as "disabled" instead of "persons with disabilities" will not meaningfully alter the obstacles faced by these people. Time spent policing language, beyond a basic effort to be both precise and respectful, is often time wasted. And that's before you even get into the coded politics of language policing, where one group convinces itself that it is more enlightened than the next, because it knows the preferred-nomenclature-of-the-month.

I work in civil rights, and I'll eat my hat if word choice has ever been either the cause of or solution to a major inequality in society.
This is non-sensical. Whether or not discriminatory language is the worst thing in society is irrelevant; it doesn't have to be. It just has to be harmful, and it most certainly is. Whether you personally care enough about it to make the change doesn't mean that it doesn't matter.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby WHS » February 19th, 2015, 12:13 pm

What this comes down to is that you've abrogated to yourself the right to decide whether other people are allowed to be offended by terminology that you don't personally find offensive.
No, what it comes down to is that I haven't unilaterally ceded that right to them.

Neither have you, by the way -- you're the one who casually tossed the mother of all racial slurs into this thread like it was nothing, a "problematic" usage if there ever was one -- you just like to pretend that you have, in order to demonstrate how fair-minded you are.

EDIT: okay, to be clear, other people are allowed to be offended by whatever they want. But I do reserve the right to incorporate common sense into my word choices. The mere fact other people are offended by a word does not mean I have to take them seriously. And as your rather casual use of the n-word illustrates, you obviously feel the same way.
Last edited by WHS on February 19th, 2015, 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby Snelbian » February 19th, 2015, 12:14 pm

What this comes down to is that you've abrogated to yourself the right to decide whether other people are allowed to be offended by terminology that you don't personally find offensive.
No, what it comes down to is that I haven't unilaterally ceded that right to them.

Neither have you, by the way -- you're the one who casually tossed the mother of all racial slurs into this thread like it was nothing, a "problematic" usage if there ever was one -- you just like to pretend that you have, in order to demonstrate how fair-minded you are.
What is this I don't even...

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby WHS » February 19th, 2015, 12:26 pm

Can we all just agree to table this topic, though? Important or not, it is clearly pretty irrelevant to the structural disparities in the Twin Cities. This sort of thing gets discussed endlessly everywhere already.

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Re: "The Miracle of Mpls", Local Responses & Racial Disparit

Postby Didier » February 19th, 2015, 12:32 pm

For what it's worth, I work some with U.S. Paralympics and "disabled" is the term we use to describe the athletes. Certainly people have different tolerances, and I understand that. If you're a mom with a disabled child, you might be sensitive to certain language that feels like it limits your child, and I think most reasonable people would respect that. But describing a disabled person as disabled is not inherently offensive.

Similarly, it's not inherently offensive to describe a black person as black. I refer to AP Style, which is the baseline style for almost all U.S. newspapers. Again, some people will have their personal reasons for preferring African American, and normal people can respect those personal preferences. But if the most influential newspaper stylebook has determined that "black" is the appropriate word, it's hard to argue that it's inherently offensive.


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