Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

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BigIdeasGuy
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Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby BigIdeasGuy » January 14th, 2020, 12:58 pm

Over the years I've been following this site and other urbanist websites I've noticed opposition to any project that would primarily serve tourists, hotels being the exception, things like Convention space, meeting space, tourist attractions and other general "fun" stuff to over simplify things. Same thing for large scale events, Super Bowls, Final Fours, WrestleMania's, etc. Most times I see something proposed that would fit that general criteria it's meet with something between indifference to downright hostility.

As I've been thinking about this over time and I keep coming back to the same question, what is the role of tourists in a city? Should they be welcomed? Ignored? Told to leave? From there are the only people who are welcome residents? What role should the public sector have in tourism? What role should the private sector have in tourism?

My general impression is that current urbanist conventional wisdom is that encouraging tourism is bad. Is that fair?

alexschief
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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby alexschief » January 14th, 2020, 3:32 pm

Tourists are great. The critique is that cities spend too much time and money vying for the attention of tourists, especially on big splashy megaprojects and megaevents (see: basically every convention center, or the Super Bowl) and not enough on basic good government things.

When people think about going to Paris, they think about the Eiffel Tower or the Louvre, but if those attractions were standing in the middle of a field somewhere, they'd be far less well known. It's the brand of Paris, the Hausmannian buildings, the gardens, the cafes, etc that make the tourist economy of that city possible.

If you're spending lots of money as a city trying to become a tourist attraction, you're doing it wrong, you really can't just manufacture that stuff or you end up becoming Epcot. Focus on being a great city for your residents, building cool stuff for residents, and the visitors will follow.

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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby nordeast homer » January 16th, 2020, 3:21 pm

I think that the benefit of having larger events and even conventions to a certain degree help introduce the city to people that may not have a knowledge of the area or even a desire to have come here otherwise. Not everyone has a desire to fly 4 hours to see a blue rooster or the Stone Arch Bridge.
During the Super Bowl I spoke to several people who said they would not have come here if it weren't for the event, but were impressed enough that they were planning on coming back in warmer weather to revisit the area and check things out. I know it's a large investment, but I believe the payback is long lasting. I'm not saying all events are great, but many do their job in promoting flyover land to an audience that seems to be captivated by the coasts.

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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby LakeCharles » January 16th, 2020, 4:27 pm

During the Super Bowl I spoke to several people who said they would not have come here if it weren't for the event, but were impressed enough that they were planning on coming back in warmer weather to revisit the area and check things out.
I'd be very curious to see how many people actually do come back. Merely an anecdote, but I remember when some co-workers and I made a work trip to Pittsburgh for a conference. We all loved it, and told people we'd be coming back to visit. And we meant it! I really I did want to go back, as I found it delightful. Four of us went, and that was 10 years ago, and none of us have been back since. But that is a teeny tiny sample, I'm well aware.

BigIdeasGuy
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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby BigIdeasGuy » January 27th, 2020, 1:07 pm

So basically the current thinking is that tourism is great so long it isn't encouraged and nothing is spent on facilities specially for them?

I would argue if the Eiffel Tower was proposed today would be opposed by the good part of this forum, yet it's undoubtedly the signature attraction of Paris. Though it's not biggest reason people go.

I would argue a few cities have successfully built an economy on tourism, Orlando and Vegas come to mind off the top of my head. I'm not saying that MSP should try to become the next Orlando, I would suggest there is a reasonable amount to spend on general "cool" shit that appeals to tourist along with being something residents can use and be proud of.

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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby VacantLuxuries » January 27th, 2020, 2:46 pm

The Eiffel Tower wasn't commissioned by the City of Paris, it was an attraction for the Exposition Universelle.

Orlando became a tourist destination because the land there cost next to nothing. Walt Disney bought cheap land in secret using holding companies and nearly single-handedly made Orlando a tourist destination, not the City of Orlando.

Same deal with Vegas, but with a caveat - the City of Las Vegas' early contribution to their growing tourism was... looking the other way when organized crime built casinos.

All three cities have later done things to support the tourist industries in their respective cities, but they did not directly set out to build them. I'm not going to argue that there aren't things cities can do to make themselves more agreeable to tourist destinations and to help them succeed.

But I think it's disingenuous to make it sound like the leaders of Orlando woke up one day and intentionally gave unincorporated land away on speculation to turn their economy into one based on tourism. Which is the closest equivalent to Minneapolis/our Greater MN booster orgs/etc. offering to give billions away in infrastructure, security, and ancillary costs to any sporting event that opens up bids. I would argue that Bloomington underwriting the Mall of America's waterpark loans is a much closer analogue to what the above cities offer to tourism in their own borders than just bringing one time events in at incredible cost.

After all, Orlando really doesn't have to try and fill convention centers anymore. Orlando is one big convention center.

alexschief
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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby alexschief » January 27th, 2020, 4:58 pm

Build cool stuff for tourists and it'll probably come off as looking inauthentic. Desperate spectacles hatched by a handful of Chamber of Commerce-types designed to attract tourist attention are not a sustainable or wise economic development strategy.

Build cool stuff for your residents and people from outside will hear about it and visit. Smart incremental investments in the wealth, health, and imagination of your entire populace are a sustainable and wise economic development strategy.

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BBMplsMN
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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby BBMplsMN » January 27th, 2020, 6:43 pm

Alternatively, a place like Cancun was specifically “created” to be a tourist destination by the Mexican government.

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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby Multimodal » April 20th, 2020, 11:15 am

Much like Cancun, Orlando & Las Vegas are non-places. They are giant tourist parks. Great for tourism, but nothing to do with urbanism or placemaking for residents (who are mostly just contract workers for those non-places).

Think about cities that have a virtual logo in your mind: St. Louis & the Gateway Arch. New York and the Statue of Liberty or Empire State Building. Copenhagen and Tivoli. Paris & the Eiffel Tower. Seattle and the Space Needle. Rome and the Colosseum. The Tower of London. Sydney Opera House.

The Colosseum is the closest thing to a stadium, but it’s notable because of its history rather than having events there. Each icon has a different origin story: religious, culture, entertainment, gift from a foreign country, or just a commercial entity.

I think it’s worth a city having a landmark (as opposed to a stadium or convention center) that acts as an icon representing the city. It brings in tourism and represents the identity of a city in people’s minds. St. Paul has the Cathedral and the Capitol. Minneapolis arguably has the Stone Arch Bridge and the Chain of Lakes, both of which are quite nice and help form its identity, but don’t really rise to iconic. (Yet a city needs more than just a single iconic structure to be destination worthy.)

So I think we could stand to have something more iconic in the Twin Cities.

Convention centers and stadiums are fine and useful and bring tourists (business & leisure), but they are transient attractions for specific events. Something Tivoli-like (fun for visitors & residents) downtown or near Bde Maka Ska would be fine.

Imagine a Ferris wheel, gardens, & entertainment area near the lakes & The Mall: It could be the exclamation point at the end of a pedestrianized Lagoon Avenue, uniting Uptown with the Chain of Lakes.

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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby Didier » April 20th, 2020, 12:45 pm

The loop from downtown through St. Anthony Main via the Stone Arch Bridge and Hennepin Avenue bridge is just sitting there waiting for somebody to realize its potential.

twincitizen
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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby twincitizen » April 22nd, 2020, 4:41 pm

Every summer I am surprised by how busy St. Anthony Main...isn't. Even with the boost of 1,000+ new residents right there (and another 1,000+ within a few blocks), some of the restaurants down there don't seem to be doing great. Some may be a poor fit for that particular scene, the former Vic's space is vacant, the movie theater is rarely super busy (unless a particular movie opening weekend has drawn a crowd from the U). Getting back to my first sentence, I was mostly referring to the lack of crowds in the public realm (street, sidewalk, parkland) and not the businesses themselves. Don't get me wrong, on a nice weekend evening there's definitely a healthy crowd down there, but you'd think it would be absolutely mobbed between the Stone Arch and the movie theater (Central Ave bridge overpass), with people milling about, enjoying the park and one of the best views in the city. There should be concerts/events programmed every Friday/Saturday night, food trucks, ice cream, maybe an open-carry booze area, decorative lights strung above the street (e.g. Larimer Square in Denver), etc.

karlshea
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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby karlshea » April 22nd, 2020, 8:53 pm

I think part of it is that it's weird to get down there. Sort of like a highway overpass isn't pleasant to walk under, so it separates blocks on either side, if you're on foot there's really only three entrances and they're pretty far apart. And the middle one isn't super clear.

amiller92
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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby amiller92 » April 23rd, 2020, 12:20 pm

Perhaps not a meaningful factor, but it's not a pleasant place to bike too, with the options of trying to use the paved path, and dodging pedestrians, or riding on the cobblestones.

tab
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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby tab » April 23rd, 2020, 12:51 pm

I think a 'light' version of Open Streets would do really well here. Closing the street would help deal with the bike/ped pinch points, and open up space for music, food trucks, and other programming. It's not hard to get to from Northeast and Downtown. I'm guessing this is one of a few riverfront parks in Minnesota that perhaps 100k+ residents could reach by bike in 15 minutes.

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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby MNdible » April 23rd, 2020, 2:50 pm

For what should be a premier space in the city, the public realm here suffers from a huge amount of neglect. It seems like in other cities, this place would be spit-polished, but as near as I can tell, the only thing that's been done here in the last decade was maybe some new interpretive plaques that went up. Trails are in rough shape, the landscaping amounts to mowed grass and overgrown trees along the riverbank.

twincitizen
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Re: Role of Visitors and Spaces for them in Cities

Postby twincitizen » April 23rd, 2020, 9:42 pm

Having a single entity in charge of the public realm would be a good start, rather than split between the City and Park Board. It's probably too small an area / too few businesses to have its own BID (Business Improvement District aka special maintenance district). It would almost have to be like an expansion of the DID, rather than a separate thing. I suppose some funding could be generated by fees on events and food trucks entering that space.


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