Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.

[EOst]

Then they would be wrong. And they effectively admitted it as such with their much more rational actions, apologies, and resignation that followed after they calmed down.

I don't personally feel comfortable telling widely discriminated-against people why they should value abstract societal ideals (many routinely ignored against them anyway) over their physical safety and basic personal rights. These people believe (and there is good reason to agree with them) that American society is structurally racist, that people of color cannot be secure in their most fundamental rights (ie. the Declaration three: life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness), and that major institutions (the government, the police, even the press) either unconsciously or consciously perpetuate and abet that system. You can argue on the merits of those positions. But I can hardly fault them for choosing to prioritize the preservation of those things over something like this.

None of those protestors would disagree that the government shouldn't restrict the press, or that people have the right to free speech; those are the same rights they're fighting for! The ESPN reporter ignored their (actually quite reasonable) request to maintain a single safe and private location for students of color in the midst of racially-charged turmoil, a request he not only refused to honor but openly mocked. Since when is showing hostility to a rude journalist "violating the rights of the press"?

TIller: I don't see the point of arguing with someone who clearly isn't acting in good faith. If those ludicrous straw men are the only kind of argument that you have, then kindly keep them to yourself, thanks.

[intercomnut]

There's currently a rally by BLM blocking the entrance to the 4th Precinct in North Minneapolis. Link to the Livestream.

[David Greene]

Man, this MPD thing is bad.

I think it pretty improbable that the police shot a handcuffed man, though not impossible. If he broke free of a hold or something and charged toward the EMTs, it would be excessive, though not unbelievable, for someone to shoot.

The problem here is that after decades of distrust, this was the absolutely predictable outcome of a black man getting shot by police in North. The individual officer may or may not have acted wrongly but the fact is that the system has acted wrongly for decades and this is what it has wrought.

I lean toward viewing any shooting by police as initially excessive. I mean, really, how many times are cops in a situation where lethal force is required? If a man is wielding a knife, you do not have to shoot him from 50 feet away.

This isn't even the first questionable shooting of a black man by MPD in the last few years. The Terrance Franklin incident happened just before Ferguson and it happened in Southwest, meaning the immediate area wasn't full of people who've been mistreated by MPD for years.

I completely understand and support the reaction by BLM and the community. But I also will wait for the investigation to determine whether the officer is guilty of something and also to judge the reliability of said investigation. I'd feel better if the investigation could be conducted by a group not connected to law enforcement. Is that so much to ask?

[David Greene]

To clarify/muddy the situation -- it appears that he has not been killed but is currently at HCMC. He was certainly described as being motionless/lifeless on the ground after the incident, though.

Reports are that he is brain-dead.

[EOst]

Mind-boggling that they'd shoot for the head. Why on earth?

[amiller92]

Wow, you really outdid yourself with that absurd slippery slope fallacy there. Well done!

I see you have no actual rebuttal.

Do you then agree that using "percieved safety" (also known as "feelings") as an excuse to abridge our fundamental rights is indefensible?

By whom? If a group of students attempt to exclude the press from their event (even on public land), there is no right being abridged.

It's only an issue when a state actor (e.g. a state employee) gets involved.

[amiller92]

But I also will wait for the investigation to determine whether the officer is guilty of something and also to judge the reliability of said investigation.

I'll wait until we get a chance to evaluate the evidence ourselves, and hope that when we do so, it will agree with the results of the investigation.

[acs]

But I also will wait for the investigation to determine whether the officer is guilty of something and also to judge the reliability of said investigation.

I'll wait until we get a chance to evaluate the evidence ourselves, and hope that when we do so, it will agree with the results of the investigation.

Totally agree. As an outside observer, one of the most disagreeable things I see with BLM and the NAACP is how they immediately jumped on the police department and started demanding heads. That's not how justice works, that's a lynching. There's just so much we don't know right now.

[grant1simons2]

They were demanding video evidence and for the officer who shot Jamar to acquitted. There were a lot of emotions in North last night.

[mattaudio]

That's not how justice works, that's a lynching.

Interesting choice of metaphor.

[kirby96]

I lean toward viewing any shooting by police as initially excessive. I mean, really, how many times are cops in a situation where lethal force is required? If a man is wielding a knife, you do not have to shoot him from 50 feet away.

...and now we move on to a presumption of guilt. Welcome to the brave new world.

[WHS]

he ESPN reporter ignored their (actually quite reasonable) request to maintain a single safe and private location for students of color in the midst of racially-charged turmoil, a request he not only refused to honor but openly mocked. Since when is showing hostility to a rude journalist "violating the rights of the press"?

For real? He was trying to do his job and take pictures and they physically assaulted him. He was firm and insistent on his right to be there and report, which is how journalism works. Even some of the protesters have since recognized that their behavior was ridiculous and unproductive and put out notices to accommodate the press in the future.

Desperate ally-ship takes on an emperor-has-no-clothes quality sometimes -- it's perfectly clear what's happening in that video.

[WHS]

The problem here is that after decades of distrust, this was the absolutely predictable outcome of a black man getting shot by police in North. The individual officer may or may not have acted wrongly but the fact is that the system has acted wrongly for decades and this is what it has wrought.

Agreed. I think it's probably a tactical mistake for the protesters to focus so much on the handcuffs. It's not impossible that's how it happened, but like you say, it seems implausible, and they risk undermining their point if someone has a video showing something else. The real issue here is that decades of discrimination and segregation have created a situation where the brunt of police action falls on a small, disadvantaged population, and that's true regardless of the particulars of any given incident. I do feel like one problem with this viewpoint is that it's harder to find an obvious antagonist -- in a sense, the police are just as trapped in this broken system as anyone else, also driven by broader forces outside of their control. Not that that justifies individual abuses of power, of course.

[amiller92]

The problem here is that after decades of distrust, this was the absolutely predictable outcome of a black man getting shot by police in North. The individual officer may or may not have acted wrongly but the fact is that the system has acted wrongly for decades and this is what it has wrought.

Agreed. I think it's probably a tactical mistake for the protesters to focus so much on the handcuffs. It's not impossible that's how it happened, but like you say, it seems implausible, and they risk undermining their point if someone has a video showing something else. The real issue here is that decades of discrimination and segregation have created a situation where the brunt of police action falls on a small, disadvantaged population, and that's true regardless of the particulars of any given incident. I do feel like one problem with this viewpoint is that it's harder to find an obvious antagonist -- in a sense, the police are just as trapped in this broken system as anyone else, also driven by broader forces outside of their control. Not that that justifies individual abuses of power, of course.

There are a number of problems that seem to feed back on each other.

Personally, I think it starts with a police culture that's way too comfortable with the use of force (see, e.g., this beating of a white guy: http://gawker.com/heres-video-of-cops-b ... 1742707571)

Then tell them this sort of violence is an essential part of their jobs (see the FBI director and the "Ferguson effect")

Then send aggressive, violent, self-righteous cops to be overly focused on poor communities of color.

Then add in a society utterly stained by racism that views young black men as inherently dangerous.

It's a recipe for inflicting state-sponsored violence and death on a small group of people.

[mulad]

The Guardian's database of people killed by police in 2015, The Counted, ticked over to 1,000 entries today.

[MNdible]

Meanwhile, at Yale...

[David Greene]

But I also will wait for the investigation to determine whether the officer is guilty of something and also to judge the reliability of said investigation.

I'll wait until we get a chance to evaluate the evidence ourselves, and hope that when we do so, it will agree with the results of the investigation.

Yeah, that's necessary. You're correct that I'm ceding too much to authorities. Thanks.

[David Greene]

I lean toward viewing any shooting by police as initially excessive. I mean, really, how many times are cops in a situation where lethal force is required? If a man is wielding a knife, you do not have to shoot him from 50 feet away.

...and now we move on to a presumption of guilt. Welcome to the brave new world.

Where did I say, "guilty?" Tell me, how many times do you think police actually need to shoot someone? It's not the number of times they *have*, which is much greater.

[kirby96]

Fair enough, but you did say 'any' based on what appears to be some sort of statistical likelihood (which very well might be true.) I dont think it's difficult to see how such statements are concerning to folks who value due process.

[amiller92]

Yeah, that's necessary. You're correct that I'm ceding too much to authorities. Thanks.

I wish I had more faith in the authorities, and I do trust our locals more than some, but sadly in this area history suggests that we have to be skeptical.