Southdale Area - Edina

[grant1simons2]

Uh.. I think it has a very long ways to go until it feels like a downtown.

[min-chi-cbus]

Downtown Schaumburg (IL) maybe.

[RailBaronYarr]

This area really needs a better transit connection to downtown and places in between (50th/France, Linden Hills, Uptown). Too many jobs, residents, shopping, and civic uses for just the 6 and the 578 highway express.

[grant1simons2]

I timed the 6 on a Saturday afternoon, March 5th to be exact. It took me a full hour to get from my apartment, right on the 35W University Ave exits, to Southdale. It takes about 10 minutes in a car. It's ridiculous.

[Anondson]

People who could make transit better here will get around to thinking of making it better in about ... 5–10 years of process and meetings ... maybe.

[MNdible]

That's the problem with a route that connects a bunch of really popular places -- it's going to be slow. How to fix it?

1. Make 578 service more frequent, all day -- this could be done tomorrow, with just a little funding.
2. Provide some sort of an express overlay service, although I'm not sure how much faster this would really be since it's going to be following the same winding, congested route.
3. Give the whole route the aBRT treatment.

[twincitizen]

Edina has political power. Mayor Jim Hovland is relatively influential regionally. I think he actually chaired one of the SWLRT committees, despite there not actually being a stop in Edina (Blake Road & Hopkins Stations are pretty close though). State Senator Melisa Franzen has also been very close to the transportation bill stuff in the legislature. She was just named to the conference committee to come up with a compromise between the House and Senate bills. She is very much in favor of increased transit funding.

Problem is, no politicians (short of maybe Scott Dibble and Frank Hornstein and a Mpls Councilmember or two) give a damn about regular local bus service (which unfortunately includes aBRT, outside of our very small circle of transit enthusiasts).

I am convinced that if Edina's leadership would just exercise the considerable political power they already have, they could make something happen in pretty short order. If Mayor Hovland and Senator Franzen could be convinced that an aBRT route covering the 6 was important, I think they could make it happen in pretty short order (in terms of transit projects anyways).

FWIW, starting in late 2019 anyways, the best route between downtown and Southdale will be Orange Line + 515 (both on the high-freq network). There will also be a new France Avenue route that terminates at West Lake Station (SWLRT). It will travel at least as far south as Southdale Transit Station, if not further. I think a reasonable case could be made that that route should be limited-stop (if not full aBRT) to quickly connect the various nodes along France to the LRT system.

[Archiapolis]

This area really needs a better transit connection to downtown and places in between (50th/France, Linden Hills, Uptown). Too many jobs, residents, shopping, and civic uses for just the 6 and the 578 highway express.

Part of my architecture thesis was to suggest a "decentralized" transit network that directly connects "nodes" of activity with frequent/express/limited stop service (something akin to aBRT?). For example, express bus routes from the University of MN - Mpls campus area (maybe 5 stops at the U area?) with an endpoint at Southdale - rush hour service only.

Please keep in mind that I am a lowly architect and in my thesis research, I just scratched the surface on transit and BRT v aBRT, light rail v streetcar etc. I am proud that I did not embrace single-use, driverless cars as a concept. My suggestion was a concept only.

I await destruction by the streets geeks. #begentleplease

[twincitizen]

Some deets from F&C.
Comp Plan amendment approved to add these parcels in the Southdale District Activity Center, allowing high-density residential development.

Phase 1 would be built on the site of the office building at 3250 W 66th: https://gis.hennepin.us/property/map/de ... 2824240005
227 units

Phase 2 could be 5-10 years away due to existing leases in the 6550 York "Titus" building. Tentatively planned to be another 148 units.

As Anondson indicated, the pleas for a connected 65th Street have gotten somebody's attention at the city:

A city-commissioned traffic study indicated no major infrastructure improvements would be needed to accommodate the development. The city has asked the developer to preserve the option to extend 65th Street across the northern 30 feet of the site.

Far from a done deal though. I've heard Edina is talking to Hennepin County about changes/improvements to the 66th/York intersection. The 66th Street reconstruction project in Richfield (2017-18) stops about two blocks east between Xerxes and Washburn. It would obviously make a lot of sense to get plans going now for any major changes at York/66th. I think a multi-lane roundabout is the ideal solution here, as it would eliminate all those free rights and double left turn lanes, dramatically reducing crossing distances and providing pedestrian refuges. In the interim though, I think they'll just consider closing a "free right" or two.

Staff report: http://edina.novusagenda.com/agendapubl ... etingID=52
F&C story: http://finance-commerce.com/2016/03/dlc ... partments/

[Anondson]

The five story medical offices at the SW corner of 65th and France has been topped out and the skyway link to Fairview hospital has begun.

[twincitizen]

Three things:

First, an update that probably no one cares about: Freshii has closed in the food court. Southdale was the first MN location. The Downtown (Gaviidae) and MOA locations appear to still be open. Southdale's food court as a whole is still pretty vacant. There's SmashBurger, Qdoba, Panda, and a Subway...with a lot of vacant space inbetween.

Second, there's a new Jimmy Johns on the first level, between JCP and "Door 13" mall entrance there. It's sort of right below the food court, near the kids play area down there. It seems fairly hidden, though they do have exterior signage and windows and whatnot. It will be right next to the new Hennepin County Service Center, so that should at least help with lunchtime business. I'll bet they'll do a ton of delivery business to the hospital and nearby office buildings, once they become an established option.

Third, foot traffic at the mall still just seems really, really slow. The sit down restaurants (BWW, Rojo, Cheesecake Factory, PF Changs) on the south side of the mall seem to do ok, and the movie theater is always busy, but the mall itself just doesn't have the kind of foot traffic that I seem to remember at Rosedale, Ridgedale, etc. The 1,000+ new residents (and hotel guests) that will move into the immediate area over the next 3-5 years will help, but I'm still concerned it will be too little and too late, if any retail stores start to vacate before those effects are felt.

[Drizzay]

From what I remember, traffic has been slow for a few years. Saturdays aren't bad, and Dave & Busters has brought a little more traffic around the corner by Macy's, but levels are no where near what they were before the recession.

It's just a weird setup for the Food Court and JCP. I am not sure if any sort of remodeling could open that up to the rest of the mall.

[Anondson]

Traffic inside is slow... Except to the Apple Store. Filling vacancies is spotty and staggered so much that as one spot is filled another closes.

The casual Italian restaurant next to the theater changed hours so no longer is open during lunch, except weekends.

The added residents can't come fast enough.

[twincitizen]

It's just a weird setup for the Food Court and JCP. I am not sure if any sort of remodeling could open that up to the rest of the mall.

I have long thought that the renovation from a few years ago was not forward-looking enough; it was (partially-subsidized) triage and nothing more.

If I could go back in time 6 years or so, here's what I'd do: instead of bringing in Herbergers, I'd relocate JCP over to that spot. Then tear down JCP and its parking ramp, freeing up tons more space for development around the north side of the mall. A new "front door" and smaller food court could've been added to the new sans-JCP north side of the mall, avoiding those awkward dead corridors that you find today. Point blank, Southdale needed to downsize its total square footage, and they didn't do that. They are very fortunate to have brought in Dave & Busters and Gordmans when they did. I'm still skeptical that D&Bs will last up there on the 3rd floor without more overall foot traffic coming through. I don't know how the spaces compare, but in hindsight, it may have actually worked out better to put D&Bs in the basement...not like it has windows anyways.

[matthew5080]

I can't remember Southdale having decent foot traffic in my lifetime. Even Eden Prairie Center at its slowest times seems busier than Southdale at its average times... and then Ridgedale and Rosedale are just at completely different levels. Not sure about Burnsville Center though, as it's been ages since I was last there. The one thing I've always liked about Southdale over Ridgedale is that Southdale has better food options... or at least more of it.

[nordeast homer]

I can't remember Southdale having decent foot traffic in my lifetime. Even Eden Prairie Center at its slowest times seems busier than Southdale at its average times... and then Ridgedale and Rosedale are just at completely different levels. Not sure about Burnsville Center though, as it's been ages since I was last there. The one thing I've always liked about Southdale over Ridgedale is that Southdale has better food options... or at least more of it.

Until the late 80's Southdale was the gold standard, it was always busy! It was the most successful of the "Dales" and never had vacancies, or at least not for very long. Now it reminds me of how Eden Prairie mall was in the 90's, where you could roll a bowling ball down any main corridor and never fear hitting a person. I hope they figure out a way to pump new life into this one, because the retailers will start fleeing before too long.

[acs]

I'd rather just see malls die out completely. I don't care how many apartment complexes surround it. It's a shopping mall.

[min-chi-cbus]

I can't remember Southdale having decent foot traffic in my lifetime. Even Eden Prairie Center at its slowest times seems busier than Southdale at its average times... and then Ridgedale and Rosedale are just at completely different levels. Not sure about Burnsville Center though, as it's been ages since I was last there. The one thing I've always liked about Southdale over Ridgedale is that Southdale has better food options... or at least more of it.

Until the late 80's Southdale was the gold standard, it was always busy! It was the most successful of the "Dales" and never had vacancies, or at least not for very long. Now it reminds me of how Eden Prairie mall was in the 90's, where you could roll a bowling ball down any main corridor and never fear hitting a person. I hope they figure out a way to pump new life into this one, because the retailers will start fleeing before too long.

Yes! Although I don't remember Southdale in the 80's THAT much, seeing as though I was 7 years old when we left Minneapolis for St. Louis and when we came back to the Twin Cities (via Wayzata for a stint, then eventually Edina), it was 1988-89 and we spent most of our shopping time that year in Ridgedale. Then in the 90's Eden Prairie Center was the dud mall, not Southdale (although it started to decline in the 90's, but nothing like you see today).

I wonder how they could reinvent Southdale in a successful way, without tearing the whole thing down, and even then I don't know what they could do with that space. Maybe turn it into a giant indoor/outdoor water park and lifestyle center? I really don't know.

[Anondson]

If I could go back in time 6 years or so, here's what I'd do: instead of bringing in Herbergers, I'd relocate JCP over to that spot. Then tear down JCP and its parking ramp, freeing up tons more space for development around the north side of the mall. A new "front door" and smaller food court could've been added to the new sans-JCP north side of the mall, avoiding those awkward dead corridors that you find today. Point blank, Southdale needed to downsize its total square footage, and they didn't do that.

I had similar thoughts, too. JCP may still fold seeing how they seem to be slumping further. Rather than demo the JCP space and make a new front door, my idea is that the JCP side could be demo'd and something other than retail be put in. Take the original concept for Southdale as having jobs, stores, and residences in one area, I'd like to see Southdale Center replace the JCP space with offices. The Southdale block is zoned for up to 12-stories, if I remember right. A 12-story office tower attached to Southdale Center in the spot JCP is would make a big difference.

[FISHMANPET]

Is Southdale, or that kind of mall in general, just not fancy enough for the people of Edina anymore? Edina is probably more upper middle class than it was when the mall was built, right?