Block E (archive)

[Nathan]

Does anyone know if any major metropolitan cities have successful nice casinos besides like Las Vegas and Atlantic City? I personally don't like the idea of a casino downtown, but only because I've never seen something that actually added to the value of my experience in a city (granted the city isn't a gambling town in the first place). The little one in Duluth creeps me out. Detroit maybe has one? I just don't think Casino adds to Minneapolis' sense of place in any way, and would probably be perceived as gimmicky and probably seedy (reasons why I never walk on the same side of the block as Block E now as it is.)... just my thoughts. But I am curious about other successful urban casinos.

[martykoessel]

I've been to casinos only a few times in my life, and two things kept me from going back.

First, after I'd been at the blackjack table for a few hours, it started seeming routine and not a whole helluva lot of fun.

More importantly, half the people around me had that gaunt, desperate look of the gambling addict. These folks are throwing every cent they can into a game that is much more likely to destroy them than save them.

The casino advocates are painting a Casino Royale image of a downtown casino. In reality, the high rollers will be few, greatly outnumbered by poor souls grasping at straws. Of course, the addicts will find a way to throw their money away, downtown or not, but watching them do this is truly depressing, not exactly the thing that will be a boon to the downtown nightlife.

On this issue, I'm right in there with R.T. No casino for Block E!

[twincitizen]

Even if a downtown casino were a good idea (examples from other cities suggest is a very bad idea), I'm pretty sure Block E is not the best place for it.

I really hate this logic of: Block E is a vacant building and some people think casinos are a good idea, so let's automatically marry those two ideas without any regard for traffic circulation, quality of life downtown, other ramifications to successful businesses in the area, etc.

Downtown casinos are solutions for desparate cities like Detroit that have unsympathetic state governments and zero regional tax base sharing. Minneapolis is a growing city with a building boom going on downtown and elsewhere. We are FAR from desparate. Block E might not be redeveloped into anything particularly exciting (offices, hotel expansion, etc) but it will be better than a vacant building. I'm not convinced a 24-hour casino in Block E would be better than a vacant building. If the Target Center re-do happens sooner rather than later, I think there will be additional motivation for Alatus to start making some changes.

[min-chi-cbus]

Does anyone know if any major metropolitan cities have successful nice casinos besides like Las Vegas and Atlantic City? I personally don't like the idea of a casino downtown, but only because I've never seen something that actually added to the value of my experience in a city (granted the city isn't a gambling town in the first place). The little one in Duluth creeps me out. Detroit maybe has one? I just don't think Casino adds to Minneapolis' sense of place in any way, and would probably be perceived as gimmicky and probably seedy (reasons why I never walk on the same side of the block as Block E now as it is.)... just my thoughts. But I am curious about other successful urban casinos.

As long as Cleveland qualifies as "major" here, I could argue the casino here (Horseshoe) is fairly successful so far. It's been open since April/May 2012, so it's way too small of a statistical sampling to get any kind of real idea of how successful it is or isn't. However I know the State allowed the 5 casinos (Cleveland, Columbus, Cincy, Toledo and Dayton or Youngstown, I believe) as a means to generate revenue for state and municipal funding programs, like schools. Furthermore, downtown Cleveland is FAR from dead, and apparently that's a fairly new phenomenon! It's actually quite a nice downtown here (live here now), and they re-did this public square in front of the casino where the city use to congregate downtown (the former Higbees department store -- what you saw in "A Christmas Story" in the first scene of the movie when Ralphie strolls window-side looking at toys). It hasn't exactly spawned a ton of reciprocal development, like restaurants, apartments, offices, etc., but it probably has maintained many of them that may have otherwise closed up shop.

If Minneapolis had Cleveland's Horseshoe Casino, it would be a "draw" in terms of adding to the vitality of downtown, IMO. Horseshoe bills itself as "high-end", and caters more to the upper-middle income crowd than the lower income variety. If Minneapolis were to have ANY casino, I guess I'd rather see something more akin to Monte Carlo than Duluth.

[MotorCity2TwinCities]

Detroit has the MGM, Greektown Casino and Motor City Casino. All 3 are large and Greektown and MGM are pretty nice. Detroit really messed up by not having them all built along the riverfront and next to one another. Now if you go to one, there is no way to walk to another. They are way too spread out and it is really a shame.

[Didier]

It's kind of a moot point anyway, since it's not like the DLF was ever leading the charge for a casino. It's opposed by groups on pretty much all sides of the table.

[MSPtoMKE]

DFL. Democratic-Farmer-Labor

Count me among those that think a Casino is a bad idea. People avoid Block e as it is, I don't think a casino will help their perception of the area.

[Lancestar2]

I'm not convinced a 24-hour casino in Block E would be better than a vacant building.

Really? What are the benefits to having a vacant building over building a casino which will attract people downtown and spend money?


Secondly if your only argument against building a casino is because it's depressing to watch people spend there money it seems pretty weak IMO. Attracting more visitors would mean more secondary sales at other businesses and bars downtown. Of course building a gambling district is immoral and unchristian like so I understand the massive volume of resistance Increased revenue for public projects like remodeling the Target center and transit needs such as street car line along Hennepin seems like it would be a good idea. Then again we would have to endure all the sad faces of the people who lost some money at the casino I guess maybe leaving it vacant for the drug dealers would be the REAL win win situation!

[Nick]

What we need is to get all your emoticons downtown, spending their money.

[Lancestar2]

hmm... but then how would I be able to express my individualism and extremely complex emotions?

[Nathan]

Does anyone know if any major metropolitan cities have successful nice casinos besides like Las Vegas and Atlantic City? I personally don't like the idea of a casino downtown, but only because I've never seen something that actually added to the value of my experience in a city (granted the city isn't a gambling town in the first place). The little one in Duluth creeps me out. Detroit maybe has one? I just don't think Casino adds to Minneapolis' sense of place in any way, and would probably be perceived as gimmicky and probably seedy (reasons why I never walk on the same side of the block as Block E now as it is.)... just my thoughts. But I am curious about other successful urban casinos.

As long as Cleveland qualifies as "major" here, I could argue the casino here (Horseshoe) is fairly successful so far. It's been open since April/May 2012, so it's way too small of a statistical sampling to get any kind of real idea of how successful it is or isn't. However I know the State allowed the 5 casinos (Cleveland, Columbus, Cincy, Toledo and Dayton or Youngstown, I believe) as a means to generate revenue for state and municipal funding programs, like schools. Furthermore, downtown Cleveland is FAR from dead, and apparently that's a fairly new phenomenon! It's actually quite a nice downtown here (live here now), and they re-did this public square in front of the casino where the city use to congregate downtown (the former Higbees department store -- what you saw in "A Christmas Story" in the first scene of the movie when Ralphie strolls window-side looking at toys). It hasn't exactly spawned a ton of reciprocal development, like restaurants, apartments, offices, etc., but it probably has maintained many of them that may have otherwise closed up shop.

If Minneapolis had Cleveland's Horseshoe Casino, it would be a "draw" in terms of adding to the vitality of downtown, IMO. Horseshoe bills itself as "high-end", and caters more to the upper-middle income crowd than the lower income variety. If Minneapolis were to have ANY casino, I guess I'd rather see something more akin to Monte Carlo than Duluth.

Nice, I'm going to be in CLE just before the New Year to visit my Dad... I'll see if I can get a good feel for it. There are a few other things I wanted to check out around town too... You should message me anything notable if you want.

I've always been more and more pleased with going to DT CLE since he moved there 15 years ago. Keeps getting better!

[jet777]

I have been worried about the proposal for a casino in Block E since hearing about it. And after your reference to Cleveland I think it's clearer why I am uncomfortable about turning what should be prime downtown real estate into casino space, and it's not because I'm opposed to casinos or gambling at all. It's more of a sign of the state of a city - who's putting casinos in their core outside of Vegas? Once great industrial Great Lakes cities now left in shambles. I'm from Detroit originally and have spent a lot of time working in Cleveland. Even 10 years ago Cleveland had the Flats area which seemed to have been gaining some traction as an entertainment district only to fall apart and leave a smattering of strip clubs. Meanwhile, in the same time period parts of the warehouse district/north loop of Minneapolis have moved in the exact opposite direction. I don't think casinos are necessarily bad for Cleveland and Detroit - if you've ever walked these downtowns you could certainly make an argument that the casinos have provided some spark for the immediate safety and development of those areas. The problem is that we're not Cleveland or Detroit, thankfully. Casinos are revenue gimmicks for once great cities that have fallen on desperate times. Downtown areas need tourists and $$. But before tourists and $$ we need (and are getting) more residents. Residents are something casinos are not attracting to Detroit and Cleveland. Density is a method to bring development to a city that should be used before casinos.

[mullen]

pittsburgh, a city consistently praised for it's urban renwal has a riverside casino near heinz filed. sometimes mpls/st paul is too precious and righteous for it's own good.

if block e becomes an office block it will be a failure and basically the developer throwing up his hands in defeat.

[Wedgeguy]

I could see putting a casino in DTE, but I'm against block E. I don't see them getting a better class of gamblers. Also I see the other 2 near by casinos upping their game. I would see the casino as a flash in the pan. Big to start, but to pay to park when you can ride a bus for free. Block E can not match the amenities that the other 2 casinos have and will be able to add. Putting a casino over by the Metrodome would help to provide a base for hotel that would compliment the dome. HAve plenty of additional land to develpe amenities on. That makes more sense to me.

[Didier]

I don't get this sentiment:

if block e becomes an office block it will be a failure

There's no reason Block E has to be a massive entertainment/tourism complex. If there's not an obvious and meaningful concept — a casino is the closest thing we have to this — then why force it? Any new development would almost certainly still include street-level and skyway retail anyway, which would do more for street life than a casino.

[twincitizen]

That's a great point and alludes to another anti-urban feature of casinos: they're completely inward focused. For reasons of both security and to keep you gambling away, casinos have few doors and fewer windows. You think putting a casino inside Block E is going to envigorate the street life? Maybe on one side where the entrance is, but the 7th Street side, for example, would likely be deader than it is today.

[Wedgeguy]

That's a great point and alludes to another anti-urban feature of casinos: they're completely inward focused. For reasons of both security and to keep you gambling away, casinos have few doors and fewer windows. You think putting a casino inside Block E is going to envigorate the street life? Maybe on one side where the entrance is, but the 7th Street side, for example, would likely be deader than it is today.

I very much agree with your logic.

[min-chi-cbus]

Nice, I'm going to be in CLE just before the New Year to visit my Dad... I'll see if I can get a good feel for it. There are a few other things I wanted to check out around town too... You should message me anything notable if you want.

I've always been more and more pleased with going to DT CLE since he moved there 15 years ago. Keeps getting better!

Sure. Let me know what kind of things you are interested in looking at and I can try to come up with a good list for you!

[min-chi-cbus]

What we need is to get all your emoticons downtown, spending their money.

Nice!

"Emoticon City"

[min-chi-cbus]

I have been worried about the proposal for a casino in Block E since hearing about it. And after your reference to Cleveland I think it's clearer why I am uncomfortable about turning what should be prime downtown real estate into casino space, and it's not because I'm opposed to casinos or gambling at all. It's more of a sign of the state of a city - who's putting casinos in their core outside of Vegas? Once great industrial Great Lakes cities now left in shambles. I'm from Detroit originally and have spent a lot of time working in Cleveland. Even 10 years ago Cleveland had the Flats area which seemed to have been gaining some traction as an entertainment district only to fall apart and leave a smattering of strip clubs. Meanwhile, in the same time period parts of the warehouse district/north loop of Minneapolis have moved in the exact opposite direction. I don't think casinos are necessarily bad for Cleveland and Detroit - if you've ever walked these downtowns you could certainly make an argument that the casinos have provided some spark for the immediate safety and development of those areas. The problem is that we're not Cleveland or Detroit, thankfully. Casinos are revenue gimmicks for once great cities that have fallen on desperate times. Downtown areas need tourists and $$. But before tourists and $$ we need (and are getting) more residents. Residents are something casinos are not attracting to Detroit and Cleveland. Density is a method to bring development to a city that should be used before casinos.

You nailed it for me! I think that when cities put casinos downtown they are basically saying "we give up....we have run out of ideas for ways to be original and attract people to our city, so we're building a casino where people HAVE to show up!". It's also pretty much the primary reason I am against one in Minneapolis -- because it just looks desperate.