Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Douglas to Lake St)

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
David Greene
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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby David Greene » December 11th, 2016, 4:35 pm

b) Why create a false choice between improvements to Hennepin (/Lyndale) bus service and capital or operational investments in the Midtown corridor? Both can and should be addressed quickly and relatively affordably (well, maybe not the streetcar). One aBRT line every few years is pretty pathetic for a thriving city in an industrialized country.
Umm...you saw the election results, right?

mattaudio
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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby mattaudio » December 12th, 2016, 9:26 am

Minneapolis and/or Hennepin can fund.

David Greene
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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby David Greene » December 12th, 2016, 11:57 am

I think you either underestimate the costs of projects or overestimate sales tax revenue. Plus you're ignoring that federal funding will dry up. Minneapolis is not going to build an LRT on its own. Minneapolis couldn't even fund aBRT on one route, much less two or more.

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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby RailBaronYarr » December 12th, 2016, 1:38 pm

I will once again point out that the City of Minneapolis decided to up their street maintenance & reconstruction budget for 2017 and beyond by roughly $20m a year in straight up levy increase. This is on top of the roughly $25m every year we planned to spend in that timeframe, and almost all of that money is for local or residential streets - not even the major corridors that receive funding help from county, state, and federal pots. The City made this change riding the back of the parks levy increase - which took much of the discussion as it was viewed much as much more of an equity and livability issue. Aside from only getting $20m annually vs. the $30m in identified annual gap, the streets portion received very little scrutiny - it was simply assumed that this was a "must-do" to maintain quality of life, etc. And, I'll agree that if we want to maintain 32' curb-to-curb streets with free parking and pavement conditions that allow 25-30mph vehicle traffic, making this funding commitment was a wise financial choice long-term vs. more deferred maintenance that would end up costing more as int he long-run.

But it shows there's ample ability for the city to commit to simply spending more for transportation. If we spent $45-50m a year (what we'll be spending on local streets out of the general fund), imagine what we could build. Imagine if that general spending was bolstered by assessments to property owners to help cover even more funding gaps - the same thing we do for streets and alleys (25% of the cost), and similar to what the City is planning for the Nicollet streetcar. Maybe this funding pot, coupled with depleted federal and state shares, wouldn't be able to build out an LRT system within our borders. But it could certainly build a crapload of aBRT routes.

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Sacrelicio
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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby Sacrelicio » December 12th, 2016, 1:57 pm

Are we already assuming that the state and federal governments will kibosh any public transportation funding? I don't think cities should give up that easily.

twincitizen
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Re: Hennepin Avenue Transit (Uptown to Downtown)

Postby twincitizen » December 12th, 2016, 4:37 pm

It's still probably too early for an "E Line" topic, but given the announcement in the aBRT general thread, I moved some conversation here.

Something that gives me pause is that reconstruction of Hennepin Avenue is not yet in the Capital Improvements Project plan. That means it is extremely unlikely to take place before 2021 (the furthest out year of the current plan). If you assume the B Line (Lake St) and D Line (Chicago-Fremont) open around 2020-2021, that would put the E Line in 2022 at the earliest. Metro Transit wouldn't want to open an aBRT line on a street that has an impending reconstruction, so you have to assume there will be some attempt to time the two projects.

Has anyone heard anything about getting Hennepin (bottleneck to Lake) reconstruction scheduled for the early 2020s? Recall that earlier this year the City started holding meetings about Hennepin Ave downtown (Washington to 12th St), even though that is scheduled for 2020 construction.

thatchio
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Re: Hennepin Avenue Transit (Uptown to Downtown)

Postby thatchio » December 13th, 2016, 12:03 am

Let's not sell bus improvements short. The A line was a small investment in the grand scheme of things and there is no reason why bus improvements have to come in the form of the full suite of improvements. Cities, counties, and transit agencies could invest strategically to improve key problem spots.

For example, bus shoulders/lanes through key congestion points would be a political investment with modest amounts for signage and paint. Traffic signal priority, depending on how it is executed, at key intersections is not as expensive as you'd think. Doing it along an entire corridor is more expensive and certainly is influenced by existing traffic signal equipment and the type of priority being provided.

What would likely be in the more expensive bucket is specialized bus fleet, major shelter construction, and off-vehicle payment vending. While these items help take bus service to the next level, if resources are constrained (which they are), focus should go toward looking system-wide for the types of improvements that could be afforded.

In Minneapolis, the city could propose creating a program to improve bus operations by investing in traffic signal improvements/detection devices, signage, and paint. As a program, it could target key opportunity spots instead of trying to geographically target the investment to strictly one corridor that really ought to be addressed as a part of a major rebuild of the street.

mattaudio
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Re: Hennepin Avenue Transit (Uptown to Downtown)

Postby mattaudio » December 13th, 2016, 9:50 am

Additionally- I think the city and/or county could take a larger role in improving transit amenities on rebuilt corridors. The projects I've seen involve agencies making assumptions about how buses work, or assuming the status quo, and then Metro Transit jumps in at the end. Could the lead agencies on street rebuilds be a little more active on pushing stop consolidation, far-side stop locations, bus bulb/larger amenity-zone space, etc?

grant1simons2
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby grant1simons2 » January 22nd, 2017, 8:20 pm

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 192273.pdf

Hennepin Ave from Lake St to 36th is going to be reconstructed in 2018 with most of the design occuring over this year. There's a couple open houses this week for CARAG and ECCO. They'll be at Bryant Square Park Rec Center (3101 Bryant Ave S) 6-8pm.

mattaudio
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby mattaudio » March 17th, 2017, 8:55 am

I just noticed it looks like Michael Lander owns two 40 ft lots on the NE corner of 32nd and Hennepin (3145 Hennepin LLC). The taxpayer address is his office at 3802 Nicollet Ave.

The current use is two cute little storefronts bolted onto the front of an old Dutch Colonial house, and a big surface parking lot in the alley. Zoning is C1. https://goo.gl/maps/A8Z6YdNmG132

I have to imagine this would be a good site for a 3+ story mixed-use building.

thatchio
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby thatchio » March 18th, 2017, 10:09 am

A property owner on the block confirmed Lander bought those properties and mentioned Lander said he was still figuring out what to do with the properties.

LyndaleHoosier
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby LyndaleHoosier » March 19th, 2017, 4:47 pm

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 192273.pdf

Hennepin Ave from Lake St to 36th is going to be reconstructed in 2018 with most of the design occuring over this year. There's a couple open houses this week for CARAG and ECCO. They'll be at Bryant Square Park Rec Center (3101 Bryant Ave S) 6-8pm.
I guess I don't get why Hennepin needs a bike lane? Looks like both design concepts eliminate parking (either just on one side or BOTH sides) on Hennepin down to 36th. Couldn't a different avenue be used as a bike boulevard to get bike traffic from 36th to the Uptown area? I live on Bryant Ave in Lowry Hill East and it is extremely well-used as a designed bike boulevard.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 19th, 2017, 5:52 pm

Well, here's why I support one. The MPRB refused to make the Calhoun trail a two-way facility, so between the lake and Bryant there are no dedicated bike facilities. Even if they had, the spacing between them still makes pretty good sense. Bryant is slated to be reconstructed south of Lake soon as well, but it's a whole 6 feet narrower, so the likelihood it gets anything more than a true boulevard treatment is slim. Hennepin Ave is identified in the Bicycle Master Plan as "consider bike lanes when reconstructed" all the way from Franklin to the cemetery, so there's certainly planning guidance for it. There are tons of people from ~Dupont to Calhoun for whom a continuous, safe bike facility along Hennepin would be the natural best choice for accessing the many businesses along this stretch (or connecting to other current/planned bike facilities like 36th St and 31st St).

Parking utilization on Hennepin is not extremely high (and of course there's the obvious point that it's not metered anywhere). Side streets could easily handle the demand. The protected design, even with 11+2 lanes (wider than necessary) could have mid-block parking bays where the cycle track bends out around them to accommodate disability parking, deliveries, Metro Mobility, or contractors where parking around the corner and walking 300' isn't reasonable.

At a philosophical level, we need to ask why we'd pass up the opportunity to have the most comfortable bike facility type when reconstructing the street in favor of providing free parking. While biking on a side street is nice, it's not for everyone. I live in CARAG 2 blocks east of Hennepin, and you could argue that biking up Fremont to get to 31st isn't much worse than on a cycle track on Hennepin. My wife disagrees, and even as a somewhat fit male comfortable asserting myself when cars creep up behind me, it's not fun (nor do I like having to stop twice as often as I would on Hennepin). Losing parking on Hennepin would be a bummer for current residents who use it, and I know businesses aren't keen on losing the 3-4 spaces right in front of their business, forcing customers to park around the corner. But life will move on, and we'd get a great facility that sets the tone for when Hennepin north of Lake St is reconstructed sometime in the future. And, the narrower the curb-to-curb width (a 5' bike lane + 8' of often un-parked will definitely encourage 35 mph speeds), the calmer traffic will be, which is a win for everyone.

tl;dr: we have a Complete Streets Policy and a Bicycle Master Plan - let's actually follow them.

amiller92
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby amiller92 » March 20th, 2017, 9:48 am

I guess I don't get why Hennepin needs a bike lane?
I'm going to start responding to all of these comments with, "every street needs a bike facility." They are all designed for cars already so they should all be designed for bikes too.
Looks like both design concepts eliminate parking (either just on one side or BOTH sides) on Hennepin down to 36th.
Oh no! Not parking!
Couldn't a different avenue be used as a bike boulevard to get bike traffic from 36th to the Uptown area?
No. Bikes want to go where the cars want to go too.
I live on Bryant Ave in Lowry Hill East and it is extremely well-used as a designed bike boulevard.
And it would be even better with an actual bike lane (preferably protected).

mattaudio
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby mattaudio » March 20th, 2017, 10:24 am

I don't understand why Hennepin Ave needs cars when we have a two-way Calhoun Parkway just west of there...

EOst
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby EOst » March 20th, 2017, 11:15 am

Even if you disagree with him, I don't understand what you guys get out of bombarding LyndaleHoosier with snark.

Anyway, yeah, there are plenty of parallel streets that could be made into good bike boulevards, but many (even most) people would still bike on Hennepin, for the same reasons they drive it. As long as that's true, we should provide facilities for them that are safe and accommodating.

David Greene
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby David Greene » March 20th, 2017, 3:36 pm

Are the bike lanes and associated parking removal also happening between Lake and 31st? Many businesses would not be happy with that...

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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby EOst » March 20th, 2017, 3:58 pm

Here are the concept docs:
http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/www/gro ... 195516.pdf
http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/www/gro ... 195517.pdf

Parking on one side of Hennepin Lake-31st would be lost with or without bike lanes. If you kill bike lanes north of 31st, you can save 10-14 parking spots.

Does anyone drive to Uptown expecting to get a sweet parking spot right on this block? I don't drive there often, but I don't think we've ever even bothered to look.

David Greene
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby David Greene » March 20th, 2017, 4:15 pm

The (very few) times I've had to get something on that block after work or some other place I had to drive to, I circulated around a few times until something opened up. It doesn't make sense to pay for the ramp in that situation and parking was also unavailable between 31st and 32nd.

Permit parking causes issues with trying to find an on-street space for quick runs to the store.

I have no idea what visitors to the area do. But the parking is always full on that block.

LakeCharles
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Re: Hennepin Avenue (Franklin to 36th)

Postby LakeCharles » March 20th, 2017, 5:28 pm

Agreed, parking is always full, and it is a convenient place to park. But killing the bike lane to save 10 parking spots seems silly.


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