Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

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Anondson
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Anondson » June 18th, 2019, 10:14 pm

I’ve cynically put my hunch on a spiteful move over the Crystal blocked connection.

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby VacantLuxuries » June 18th, 2019, 11:23 pm

From a credible source that explicitly requested to remain anonymous, BNSF has effectively killed this project for the above reasons.
Well then I wish they'd just make it official so we can start the alignment process over and hopefully learn this time that assuming railroads are going to cooperate is a bad idea.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » June 19th, 2019, 7:57 am

From a credible source that explicitly requested to remain anonymous, BNSF has effectively killed this project for the above reasons.
Well then I wish they'd just make it official so we can start the alignment process over and hopefully learn this time that assuming railroads are going to cooperate is a bad idea.
No kidding. How long has this been in serious planning, over a decade? At any point did they ask BNSF about this besides the last minute?

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mamundsen » June 19th, 2019, 8:38 am

If this is killed... move the money to fund the aBRTs.

Could the C and/or D line be extended north to provide similar coverage?

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » June 19th, 2019, 8:45 am

OR let's just do some more piecemeal extensions, such as extending the Blue Line to Van White and Penn down Olson Hwy.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » June 19th, 2019, 8:56 am

I agree move it to BRT. What were the other alignments? Could it follow the viaduct up to W. Broadway? I have no idea how it would fit on that road, however most of the traffic there doesn't consist of Mpls residents and includes many who would probably use the LRT.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby VacantLuxuries » June 19th, 2019, 10:22 am

Really, the alignment they have could have worked if they had planned to put it in the center of Bottineau instead of in the rail corridor. I have no idea why this wasn't considered.

They could re-explore running it underground through N. Minneapolis. But I'm honestly fine if we just abandon it and fund more BRT instead. I don't feel like fighting for a train to go to Target is worth it at this point.

Maybe if we get more dedicated transit funding, we can revisit putting a 394/55 'blue line extension' to northwestern suburbs on a long term drawing board.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Silophant » June 19th, 2019, 11:09 am

The "center running down a surface expressway" is arguably one of the worst parts of the plan, so I'm glad they didn't duplicate it up on Bottineau. Barring a West Broadway subway, I'd want them to explore running it along 394 out to 169 or so, reusing a couple miles of SWLRT tracks and hitting West End, which even in its car-focused state is more transit-supportive than anything along the Blue Line Extension route.
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby gopherfan » June 19th, 2019, 11:55 am

reusing a couple miles of SWLRT tracks and hitting West End
Problem - St. Louis Park doesn't want light rail in their city.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Qhaberl » June 19th, 2019, 12:00 pm

This is bordering on fantasy map discussion, but since it relates specifically to the blue line, I’m going to put it here.

Anyone out there good at drawing fantasy maps? Could anyone dry up some maps of alternative alignments? I don’t think we would end up with a tunnel. Minneapolis seems to be against tunnels. I like the idea of Hanna Evan trains run in the middle of Broadway. In order for that to work though, I think trains me true priority.


I don’t know that going through North Minneapolis is necessary. It would be great to see the areas served by light rail, but I think with the opening of the bus rapid transit system, the area will get the transit service it deserves.

I also understand asking the feasibility of even building this light rail line. If memory serves correct, except for a few stations, and there didn’t seem to be that much development potential along the line. Maybe a bus rapid transit system would serve the line better.

Assuming we can actually get some dedicated transit funding, which I realize is a big assumption, maybe we could build the bus rapid transit system in half the time it would take to build the light rail.


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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » June 19th, 2019, 1:07 pm

reusing a couple miles of SWLRT tracks and hitting West End
Problem - St. Louis Park doesn't want light rail in their city.
Southwest LRT will go through St. Louis Park so I don’t see why they would be against light rail through the West End.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby talindsay » June 19th, 2019, 1:11 pm

OR let's just do some more piecemeal extensions, such as extending the Blue Line to Van White and Penn down Olson Hwy.
I strongly agree. I wish our region would more seriously consider piecemeal expansions as money becomes available, with simpler planning and without federal money, and then using those investments as the local "match" for federal dollars when they reach that threshold. Or not, frankly. Cutting out the federal process and expanding one or two stops at a time as funding comes available is a pretty decent strategy.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Qhaberl » June 19th, 2019, 1:24 pm

I strongly agree. I wish our region would more seriously consider piecemeal expansions as money becomes available, with simpler planning and without federal money, and then using those investments as the local "match" for federal dollars when they reach that threshold. Or not, frankly. Cutting out the federal process and expanding one or two stops at a time as funding comes available is a pretty decent strategy.
That’s not a bad idea. The question is whether or not the state will go for it. Honestly, I’d much rather us cut out state funding. Assuming that the next presidential election goes the way I am thinking, we could see some big investments with the Green New deal. It seems to be the state that is the funding problem.

I like the idea of extending it to Olsen and Pen. That would mean you could switch the sea line over to Glenwood Avenue.



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Tiller
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Tiller » June 19th, 2019, 2:13 pm

Would be nice to use the West Broadway streetcar alignment between Robbinsdale and downtown (before going out to Brooklyn Park). It skips the Railroad bs and provides good crosstown & radial transit service instead. Just gotta get from the original blue line to Washington ave somehow to serve the north loop.

It's only like 2 miles until they could use Bottineau's right-of-way, so just spend an extra $100-200m per mile ($200-400m total) for elevated tracks or a cut-and-cover tunnel if there isn't enough ROW on Washington/Broadway. Apparently streetcar/LRT is fine now according to Riverview, but dedicated guideways are still better.

If they still want to move the C line to Glenwood, highway brt along 55 could serve Olson instead of the blue line. This light rail line shouldn't have been planned to run in the railroad's drainage ditch in the first place.
Image
Last edited by Tiller on June 19th, 2019, 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » June 19th, 2019, 2:24 pm

Would be nice to use the West Broadway streetcar alignment between Robbinsdale and downtown (then going out to Brooklyn Park). It skips the Railroad bs and provides good crosstown & radial transit service instead. Just gotta get from the original blue line to Washington ave somehow to serve the north loop.

Edit: if they still want to move the C line to Glenwood, then highway brt along 55 can serve Olson.
Image
If you look at a map, Target Field is really close to the 94 viaduct. Put it underneath, untop, tear it down..etc.

This is s a totally different thought. But why not just go up Lyndale to Lowry and then over to Robbinsdale?

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby HiawathaGuy » June 19th, 2019, 3:05 pm

If you look at a map, Target Field is really close to the 94 viaduct. Put it underneath, untop, tear it down..etc.

This is s a totally different thought. But why not just go up Lyndale to Lowry and then over to Robbinsdale?
Sure, Target Field is close to the 94 viaduct... but getting from Target Field Station (elevated) to the viaduct would be damn near impossible with the all the new development around the station. I think it would make more sense to go out N 7th St and then cross 94 on a new bridge to Lyndale, up to Lowry, then to Bottineau Blvd up to Robbinsdale, then following the previously planned alignment.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby WhoaCanyonero » June 19th, 2019, 5:49 pm

Here's a potential bonkers option that touches on two goals of this Forum: removal/reuse of the 4th street viaduct and a more urban, sane Blue Line Extension route. Using the stub at the Interchange, an elevated Blue Line curves north and uses the Metro Transit Heywood Garage Bus exit toward 6th Ave to cut through Metro Transit land (highlighted in Yellow) towards the 4th street viaduct. This can be done either by pairs of columns along this route (like the 'EL' in Chicago), or by continuous concrete walls until it switches to single columns at the parking lot next to Inbound Brewing. Because this is Metro Transit land, ROW would not have to be obtained until it hits the parking lot across 5th Street from Inbound. At that point, the routing would join up with a partially removed (from 2nd Ave to the LRT connection point) 4th Street viaduct. The viaduct would carry the LRT across 94 and Plymouth Ave. The removal of the northbound viaduct would free up land around 10th Ave for a new West North Loop Station (elevated), as well as other land uses. The one thing that would be challenging would be the connection to Broadway after crossing 94/rerouting the 94 ramps to 7th, but for this purpose I'm going to handwave that geometric problem away for someone else to solve. Once it gets to Broadway, it follows that avenue via at-grade center street routing (like the Green Line on University) to at least North Memorial, and on to wherever the best route beyond take it (again, somebody else figure out where this should go that isn't a cornfield.)

Please let me know what you think, or if I've overlooked a building under construction that would impede this plan, as I am going off Street View and satellite imagery.[attachment=0]Blue Line Alternate Route-min.jpeg[/attachment

TLDR: Use mostly Metro Transit ROW to carry an elevated Blue Line to the 4th Street viaduct, over 94/Plymouth Ave, turn west onto Broadway, and run the train at grade to North Memorial at least.

blo442
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby blo442 » June 19th, 2019, 7:29 pm

Heard from a friend involved that Bottineau's project office staff are in the process of being reassigned to SWLRT and other projects. They could still be called back if BNSF changes its tune, but Metro Transit is definitely hedging their bets for if/when the project gets cancelled.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » June 20th, 2019, 7:54 am

To think we chose *multiple LRT project alignments* based on the presumption that building along freight railroads would be easy. Anyways, any way they can salvage this project on a different alternative? Run it through near north with some sort of grade separation (maybe along the riverfront?) then put it at-grade in Bottineau Blvd northwest from North Memorial. End it at Robbinsdale if budget requires.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » June 20th, 2019, 8:44 am

Far more likely that plans will be mothballed at 90% engineering and the Met Council will wait around until BNSF changes their mind, or the national political situation changes in a way that gives urban transit more leverage. Just insane that the region's transit efforts were tied up for a decade on projects that were entirely at the whim of far-away freight railroads.

Anyway, it would be nice if Bottineau's difficulties result in work being moved up on Riverview and money being reallocated to aBRT. Since Bottineau ostensibly would serve North Minneapolis, maybe you can more easily transfer money from it to close the funding gap on the D Line. One can hope, right?


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