Monorail

[UptownSport]

I think this type of argument warrants a look at exportability.
Does it make sense when extrapolated to something else?

I've got to wonder with things like HIGH SPEED RAIL that if they're so great and have been around for decades, why are they only [everywhere else in the modern (and not so) world]? If HIGH SPEED RAIL made lots of sense, don't you think we'd have them?

There's a political party that'd certainly say above is true, would you?

[MNdible]

What you did there doesn't make any sense. Sorry.

[Nick]

?

[bandar_seri_begawan]

I've got to wonder with things like this (and BRT, for example) that if they're so great and have been around for decades, why are they only at Disneyland/medium-sized Appalachian state schools? It's not like there's only one transit system in the world and Bombardier has some vice-grip monopoly on planning it. If these other systems made lots of sense, don't you think we'd have them?

Chongqing
Tokyo
Chiba

Clearly typical heavy rail is much more ubiquitous, however these systems are effective for day to day transportation in large urban areas. According to this list, the Chongqing Metro has more annual passengers than the Chicago L, "despite" 2 of its 4 lines being monorail (lines 2 and 3).

[Nick]

I've got to wonder with things like this (and BRT, for example) that if they're so great and have been around for decades, why are they only at Disneyland/medium-sized Appalachian state schools? It's not like there's only one transit system in the world and Bombardier has some vice-grip monopoly on planning it. If these other systems made lots of sense, don't you think we'd have them?

Chongqing
Tokyo
Chiba

Clearly typical heavy rail is much more ubiquitous, however these systems are effective for day to day transportation in large urban areas. According to this list, the Chongqing Metro has more annual passengers than the Chicago L, "despite" 2 of its 4 lines being monorail (lines 2 and 3).

Oh hey look at that. You learn something new every day. I reckon there are some advantages to an elevated system in seismically active areas, in that the tunnel doesn't collapse?

[FISHMANPET]

Here's a (built circa 1900) Wuppertal Switch:


Throw out some BS, then challenge me to disprove it? It would be impossible to work hard enough to convince you, first you attack me, then you tell me I have to answer to someone who's "Written a book".

All true (in 1915):
Automobiles are difficult to operate because you have to use a crank to start them, constantly get flat tires, must stop and service the engine and dangerous because they only have brakes on rear axle. Plus, thousands of people are killed each year in car crashes so they're obviously deathtraps.

The Switch Myth

Even though great strides in both track and switch technologies were made in the 50's, 60's and beyond, the myth today remains a thorn in the side for monorail proponents. Partly at fault are the rail consultants and suppliers that benefit by the continuation of competing so-called conventional rail. Here at The Monorail Society, we continue to be surprised by the amount of "rail experts" that don't have a clue when it comes to the subject.

"Don't have a clue", or are paid to spread misinformation?

Your wiki article:

Current operating monorails are capable of more efficient switching than in the past. In the case of suspended monorails, switching may be accomplished by moving flanges inside the beamway to shift trains to one line or another.

an some nifty pics;









Again, Monorails.org:

Naysayers, please give it up! Monorail switches work just fine and are doing so as you read this. In fact, when is the last time you heard of a monorail switch accident? In comparison, conventional rail switches are quite capable of causing accidents. Often, switch accidents have result in system shutdowns or delays, even injuries. This isn't uncommon with conventional rail. Monorail switches on the other hand have a clean record. May the Switch Myth Rest in Peace!

And all you'd have to do is read OP to see benefits, but ignore that and throw out something from 1900

Jarret Walker is an expert in transit. Do you take some fault with his profesional experience, or are you just assuming he's part of some shadowy pro-rail cabal (especially funny because he states again and again he has no blanket mode preference, he merely has a preference for mobility).

Yes those switches exist, but they look a lot more complex than a standard steel rail switch. Which brings to my question you ignored: what's the benefit? What does monorail bring that light rail doesn't?

[UptownSport]

And all you'd have to do is read OP to see benefits, but ignore that and throw out something from 1900

Which brings to my question you ignored: what's the benefit? What does monorail bring that light rail doesn't?

I "Ignored" your question except where I didn't ^^^^^

>>>>Clicky on this Linky with the Mousy<<<<

[FISHMANPET]

And all you'd have to do is read OP to see benefits, but ignore that and throw out something from 1900

Which brings to my question you ignored: what's the benefit? What does monorail bring that light rail doesn't?

I "Ignored" your question except where I didn't ^^^^^

>>>>Clicky on this Linky with the Mousy<<<<

Alright, fair enough, I deserved that.

But I still have a hard time believing that there's some global conspiracy holding back monorail, and rather there's some practical reason that it's not being looked at in more situations.

Which is funny, because I, and I'm sure many others here, believe there was a conspiracy to destroy streetcars in the US in the 50's. I need a tinfoil hat emoticon.

I tried looking for an unbiased source on costs, but the first result was from monorail.org, a monorail advocacy blog, and the second was from lightrailnow.org, a light rail advocacy blog, so, welp.

[UptownSport]

Costs are just one item- Monorail.org says costs are dependent on several factors, and can go over standard gauge.
How much work is needed to get a foundation for poles is the operative
They claim, that in the long run, it will cost less money due to reduced maintenance- :Grain of Salt:
I suppose there's no snow removal from tracks or stations (assuming they're enclosed)

Alluring is that it has so little impact on what's below it, and that it's lass obtrusive than elevated standard gauge-
For example shortcutting lyndale/hennepin/395/dunwoody intersection by laying track thru Loring park would be a big no-go-
elevating rail would dissolve some of the complaints, but having a beam with a near silent monorail (most run on rubber tires) would be a much easier sell.
Running an elevated rail/guideway down busy streets, like Hennepin, would be a much better option than going down center ala University

This station really struck me;


It would fit skyway levels perfectly.

[FISHMANPET]

If it's running on rubber tire doesn't it lose a lot of the energy efficiency of steel on steel? Though Paris has rubber tired Metros, so not sure how much that matters in a fixed guideway.

[UptownSport]

If it's running on rubber tire doesn't it lose a lot of the energy efficiency of steel on steel? Though Paris has rubber tired Metros, so not sure how much that matters in a fixed guideway.

Interesting- Monorails.org is mute on rolling efficiency part-
Not to be a smart alec or master of obvious, but many vehicles that have acceptable efficiency with rubber tires- AND not all monorails are rubber tired; Wuppertal and maglev (some say Mag-Lev is a very loose inclusion to a M-rail's) certainly aren't
With passenger vehicles, especially at freeway speed, rolling resistance is only a fraction of wind resistance- Not to say it's not a consideration- Some spend $$$ on LRR tires- Ruan used Michelin exclusively

[TWA]

Where would you propose this monorail system out of curiosity? A loop around downtown minneapolis with stations in the skyway level? It would be nice to connect places like the metrodome light rail station, the new main station by the twins stadium, the convention center etc.

I think a fixed transportation system would be great downtown. A streetcar would help street level life more, but monorail would work great with our existing skyway system and would add a "cool factor" if we are to be honest

[fehler]

Any loop that would connect Target Field, the Convention Center, Metrodome, Guthrie/Mill District, and Warehouse District would miss the main points of where circulation is needed (CBD), and would be too long to be a one-way circle.

[mattaudio]

So now the monorail would be used as a downtown people mover a la Jacksonville or Detroit or Miami? I think the mode choice merits have already been discussed (not that I'm necessarily opposed to a monorail) but it seems like circulators have inherent mobility problems due to transfers, etc. I'm also glad we've avoided the same concepts: At one point, a LRT loop was suggested for St. Paul IIRC, and also there was the concept of express bus terminals in MPLS with transfers to downtown circulators.

I think the best approach to connecting these periphery neighborhoods on the edge of downtown is a network of streetcars with interlined downtown alignments providing for easy-to-understand routes at high frequencies. Something like this: http://goo.gl/maps/5kmTv

[mulad]

While monorails might seem ideal considering how much stuff is already on the 2nd/3rd floors in our CBDs due to skyways, the skyway systems in downtown Minneapolis and Saint Paul would cause a lot of headaches for a monorail or other elevated transit system. Unless the transit system got built a level higher than the skyways, there's just no practical way you could have them intersect each other over roadways. The guideway would have to slice right through the skyway bridges, or slice through the walkways inside buildings. The latter option would bring more weather "inside" buildings, which means that a big system of doorways would have to be built in station areas and at any other point where walkways cross the line -- plus, some sort of moving floor mechanism would have to built to make a contiguous surface for pedestrians when trains aren't around, yet slide out of the way as a train comes through.

If monorails ever reach our downtowns, they'd either have to run along the outside edge of the skyway system, the skyway system would have to be trimmed down, or the monorails would have to go underground.

[UptownSport]

That's why that shot was so intriguing- not only could you go over/under skyway or other structure, but around it as well.

I'll strongly disagree that an elevated stop would allow significant weather indoors-
Basic assumption would be a door system similar to an elevator, where car door and floor door open as one.
This system has worked well for over a century-
I'll say it's exactly the opposite, an elevated opening is exponentially better at keeping weather outside than thousands of door openings!!!

I'd like to see transport to/from the core from high density areas- for instance Hennepin, Lake or Nicollet-
Don't know that it needs to circulate
Not as familiar with North or Northeast to comment

[aguaman]

i see the monorail can-o-worms has been opened.

as i remember back more than 10 years ago from the LRT vs. monorail transit civil war in seattle (the other battle in seattle i suppose), i recall switching initially being a major issue but later as an engineering issue that could be solved relatively easily, as in the examples shown in this thread. the main issue that i recall was that the monorail system "made sense" for so many reasons but many people wanted LRT instead because "everyone else is doing LRT". So they went with LRT and now they have the beginnings of a great LRT system, while their original, historic monorail line has been deteriorating.

i agree with what was posted earlier about riding that system; anyone who enjoys riding rail transit systems, or who advocates for their preservation, development, and expansion should find time to ride the seattle monorail and walk under it. what a fun time i had.

[aguaman]

Monoraaailll! Monoraaailll! Monoraaaaaiillll! Monorail!!! Mono......DOH!
[]
This needed to be posted after all this serious talk about Monorails.

Just to confuse the issue:
Understanding that Groening grew up in Portland and was likely influenced by the rapid acceleration of LRT system planning in the 1990s there, it is believed that the reference to the monorail is actually a disguise for the debate over LRT. Every time I watch that episode, I just replace the word 'monorail' with 'LRT'.

[UptownSport]

Standard gauge is great- It will support HUGE amounts of weight even on soft ground with no prep (give me a little license here)
Some would say it made our country, men laying track as fast as humanly possible to traverse the plains.
It's great underground, DC's Metro, and Germany's U-Bahn's are everything I could ask for

Putting freight train track through cities creates a septum; there's a vast divide on University, intersections had to be closed, and parking lost. Putting tracks suited for vast weight and soft ground through a city is like killing a deer with a tank- Tanks kill deer just fine, BTW, but don't ask ...

Putting standard gauge overhead would obscure the sky, even on a wide street like University-

Please search yourself for the "L" gauge switch or junction
Overhead, monorail has a tiny outline-

So it's not that Monorail is 'better' than standard gauge, for things like freight or heavy rail it prolly wouldn't even work
For going thru a city (above ground) monorail is just a better choce

[UptownSport]

interesting piece about the closing of a monorail and remarks about Wuppertal

http://m.smh.com.au/comment/railing-aga ... 2ov2d.html