Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
CalMcKenney
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby CalMcKenney » November 14th, 2019, 3:06 pm

I like the sounds of both of those alternative routes. You would still need a way to connect to Target's northern campus, correct? Or is the alternative to skip that entirely?

EOst
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » November 14th, 2019, 4:27 pm

Broadway is only 80' wide, so LRT down the middle would require some pretty serious compromises for every other mode. University is 120', only 26 of those extra 40' are spent on keeping it 4 lanes, and I don't know that anyone would pick University as their ideal street.

(Setting aside the idea of making Broadway completely car-free, which regardless of its desirability or lack thereof, just isn't happening for this project.)

alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » November 15th, 2019, 8:54 am

Broadway is only 80' wide, so LRT down the middle would require some pretty serious compromises for every other mode. University is 120', only 26 of those extra 40' are spent on keeping it 4 lanes, and I don't know that anyone would pick University as their ideal street.
You could bring it down to one lane in each direction with staggered stations, turn lanes, and some midblock parking. ADT is 13k or lower west of the highway, so it's completely possible. University is overbuilt, it doesn't need four lanes, and shouldn't be used as the model.

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby VacantLuxuries » November 15th, 2019, 9:59 am

I like the sounds of both of those alternative routes. You would still need a way to connect to Target's northern campus, correct? Or is the alternative to skip that entirely?
It would be great to have the flexibility to change course. Eventually Maple Grove will have the same realization that Eden Prairie did that the next generation of workers and employers want an easier way to get to and from downtown, and at that point, it would be nice to avoid building this line out to a field in Brooklyn Park.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » November 15th, 2019, 10:58 am

Broadway is only 80' wide, so LRT down the middle would require some pretty serious compromises for every other mode. University is 120', only 26 of those extra 40' are spent on keeping it 4 lanes, and I don't know that anyone would pick University as their ideal street.
You could bring it down to one lane in each direction with staggered stations, turn lanes, and some midblock parking. ADT is 13k or lower west of the highway, so it's completely possible. University is overbuilt, it doesn't need four lanes, and shouldn't be used as the model.
That's exactly my point. Broadway is fully 40' narrower (1/3rd narrower!) than University, and taking University down to 2 lanes would only have netted you 26'. That means putting LRT down Broadway requires coming up with a design that has 14' less pedestrian amenities and greening and whatever than University did, and University's not great to begin with.

Compare these concept layouts for Riverview, on the 80' of West 7th:

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That's... not a great street.

alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » November 15th, 2019, 11:08 am

Broadway is only 80' wide, so LRT down the middle would require some pretty serious compromises for every other mode. University is 120', only 26 of those extra 40' are spent on keeping it 4 lanes, and I don't know that anyone would pick University as their ideal street.
You could bring it down to one lane in each direction with staggered stations, turn lanes, and some midblock parking. ADT is 13k or lower west of the highway, so it's completely possible. University is overbuilt, it doesn't need four lanes, and shouldn't be used as the model.
That's... not a great street.
I think it's fine. It's a substantial improvement over the existing condition, which has sidewalks narrower than 10' and four lanes of fast-moving car traffic. Trading a high capacity transitway for a lane of parking and two lanes of car traffic is a significant win.

LakeCharles
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby LakeCharles » November 15th, 2019, 11:21 am

Agreed with alexschief. That sidewalk design is worse than an optimal future vision, for sure, but it's better than what is currently there!

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » November 15th, 2019, 11:24 am

But the choice isn't LRT or existing conditions. Putting LRT down Broadway directly prevents a design that emphasizes pedestrian safety, business vitality, greenspace, etc.

We should be careful not to restrict our vision such that good transit is the only thing we care about.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » November 15th, 2019, 11:28 am

Put another way, "your main business corridor has to be an unpleasant street so that we can run limited stop transit service through your neighborhood" is not actually much better than "your main business corridor has to be an unpleasant street so we can run a highway through your neighborhood."

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby HiawathaGuy » November 15th, 2019, 12:09 pm

Put another way, "your main business corridor has to be an unpleasant street so that we can run limited stop transit service through your neighborhood" is not actually much better than "your main business corridor has to be an unpleasant street so we can run a highway through your neighborhood."
So aside from tunneling through the North Side, which honestly seems like an impossible endeavor, do you have other ideas? Just curious. I do hate that Broadway would go from being pretty hostile to staying pretty hostile if LRT did run down the center. But honestly, where else could it run, that it wouldn't result in lost properties?

alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » November 15th, 2019, 12:11 pm

Put another way, "your main business corridor has to be an unpleasant street so that we can run limited stop transit service through your neighborhood" is not actually much better than "your main business corridor has to be an unpleasant street so we can run a highway through your neighborhood."
Disagree: it's much better. The street gets significantly safer and more comfortable because the lanes for cars and their speed is reduced. The street gets more equitable because transit is more accessible to all ages and incomes.

This would all be the case even if the design were as sterile as the bare-bones renderings from the Riverview project. But it does not need to be. Outside of station areas, the Riverview design allocates 15' on both sides for sidewalks. That's about 4' short of the Manhattan standard, but it's more than enough room for planters, swales, street trees, benches, even loading areas and short-term parking.

Could you really do a lot more with an extra 10' or 20'? Of course. But you can absolutely put dedicated ROW transit in 80', plus lanes for cars, and still have room for a good pedestrian environment.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » November 15th, 2019, 1:05 pm

So aside from tunneling through the North Side, which honestly seems like an impossible endeavor, do you have other ideas? Just curious. I do hate that Broadway would go from being pretty hostile to staying pretty hostile if LRT did run down the center. But honestly, where else could it run, that it wouldn't result in lost properties?
I'm not sure what other alternative I would suggest, but I am not willing to buy into the trap of treating Broadway as a nail because all we have is a hammer. If we don't have a good surface ROW to run this down we shouldn't run it down a surface ROW.
Disagree: it's much better. The street gets significantly safer and more comfortable because the lanes for cars and their speed is reduced. The street gets more equitable because transit is more accessible to all ages and incomes.
Again, you're presenting the choice as status quo (terrible street, terrible transit) vs. this (terrible street, good transit). In reality, the universe of choices is much broader, including such options as great street, decent transit (4-3, wide sidewalks, Broadway streetcar) and great street, terrible transit (4-3, wide sidewalks, bus). I think the future vitality of the Northside depends a lot more on having a non-terrible main street than it does on having better limited-stop transit.
This would all be the case even if the design were as sterile as the bare-bones renderings from the Riverview project. But it does not need to be. Outside of station areas, the Riverview design allocates 15' on both sides for sidewalks. That's about 4' short of the Manhattan standard, but it's more than enough room for planters, swales, street trees, benches, even loading areas and short-term parking.
No, it has room for some of those options in any given area, but not all of them, and none of them well.

alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » November 15th, 2019, 1:51 pm

Disagree: it's much better. The street gets significantly safer and more comfortable because the lanes for cars and their speed is reduced. The street gets more equitable because transit is more accessible to all ages and incomes.
Again, you're presenting the choice as status quo (terrible street, terrible transit) vs. this (terrible street, good transit). In reality, the universe of choices is much broader, including such options as great street, decent transit (4-3, wide sidewalks, Broadway streetcar) and great street, terrible transit (4-3, wide sidewalks, bus). I think the future vitality of the Northside depends a lot more on having a non-terrible main street than it does on having better limited-stop transit.
I guess we could argue endlessly about the ways you define the situation. Let me just say that I don't think 15' sidewalks make a terrible street, and I don't think that a streetcar is "decent transit."

But I mean, I'm not wedded to this alternative at all, by far the best transit option for the northside and all riders beyond would be a tunnel that makes the diagonal from Target Field Station to North Memorial with the two stops in between, and then ran aBRT down Broadway. I'm not sure the money for that would be readily available, but it'd be a better value than the current plan, and a better transit investment than some of the metro's current projects.

I think it's possible to have both a great main street and limited stop rail transit, and I think there's a strong argument to be made that the former is more important than the latter. But if you are going to use the Lyndale-Broadway alignment for a multi-billion dollar investment, you do need to start with dedicated ROW for the train, otherwise the entire thing not worth doing at all. You can then work from there with your design to make a great streetscape. The dimensions are constraints, but they don't make it impossible, and that seems to be where we disagree.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby gopherfan » November 16th, 2019, 3:06 pm

Based on real world dimensions from University for LRT right-of-way and station platform dimensions, I think below would work and still be a great street for Broadway. This also leaves 12' of pedestrian space on each side of the street. Per Siemens, the manufacturer of our light rail, the trains are only 8.7ft wide. https://assets.new.siemens.com/siemens/ ... -sheet.pdf

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » November 17th, 2019, 1:13 pm

University LRT guideway is 12' at stations and 14' elsewhere, as in the Riverview dimensions above. Hennepin County will also at minimum require 2' of gutter for those travel lanes.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby gopherfan » November 17th, 2019, 4:32 pm

Even still they can make it work and it would be nice.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » November 18th, 2019, 9:20 am

I live in the Northside and my first thought about LRT going down Broadway is that it's a very car-centric culture and that there would be a lot of pushback. But, then there are also a good number of transit users. I'm also willing to wager much of the traffic on W Broadway is passing through. If you remove the lanes and jam it up more those cars will go elsewhere. You could also maybe route the LRT up to 26th and over back to W Broadway and Robbinsdale. Vice versa you could rip out the nice cycletrack and add lanes to make up for the lost lanes on Broadway. Intersting to think, if we charged people for entering a road like Broadway if they don't live within 5 miles of the road would reduce congestion while allowing local folks to avoid congestion.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Oreos&Milk » November 18th, 2019, 10:11 am

I like the broadway route idea, but only as a more temporary solution until they can eventually get the railroad to agree. The Broadway BRT line goes all the way to Robbinsdale and building 6 more ideally temp BRT stations north of that would be a good investment to get the line fast tracked. Maybe it be to long and slow to make it viable but on a map it looks like a good solution for now. Plus it would get some transit improvements rolling in that area.

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby VacantLuxuries » February 13th, 2020, 8:46 am

Locked MSPBJ article, but it sounds like Hennepin is quietly investigating other options. I imagine they'd have been better off doing this years ago, but better late than never?

https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/ ... b-for.html

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » February 13th, 2020, 9:09 am

Locked MSPBJ article, but it sounds like Hennepin is quietly investigating other options. I imagine they'd have been better off doing this years ago, but better late than never?

https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/ ... b-for.html
Quite unfortunate. Hopefully someday we'll have a federal government that isn't afraid to tell the railroads to play nice. BNSF being very protective of this spur line that sees a local freight train per day just doesn't make sense. Either this is getting back at Hennepin County for blocking the Crystal Connection or they don't want to deal with the Met Council after Southwest LRT.


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