Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

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tmart
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby tmart » December 20th, 2020, 2:32 pm

Replacing Target Field Station with an underground station seems really expensive, unnecessary, and unadvisable.

I do hope that in the next decade, especially with the inevitable inconveniences and challenges of two through-running LRT lines on a downtown surface street, that discussions heat up about a downtown transit tunnel. But I think the more likely result is a tunnel that goes underground between 2nd and 1st Ave, stops twice (at a new station between Nicollet and Hennepin, and beneath the existing Government Plaza station), and emerges at the current US Bank Stadium Station.

That shallow tunnel would be less than a mile long, and could be built with cut and cover and a temporary disruption of through-running service downtown.

In contrast, a tunnel through North Minneapolis would have to be bored, and I think would have to emerge before the I-94 trench and continue on 7th St at grade before climbing to Target Field Station. That would be pretty expensive, although I think you could save a little by digging out a station on the MPS parcel at Plymouth/Emerson-Fremont instead of mining it.
I think this makes a lot of sense, and is probably the most realistic scenario for how we'd eventually deal with the capacity limitations Downtown (if we ever do so). For that reason I'd like to see elevated rail play a bigger role in the discussion of Bottineau alignments (not including the core of North), as it's much cheaper and a much more natural connection to the existing Target Field Station, and all the surface routes I can imagine west of TF involve a lot of awkward intersections. (It's a shame that MnDOT is apparently committing to maintenance of the stupid North Loop Viaduct, which could have been adapted into an excellent ROW between Target Field and North.)

A few nitpicky questions, if you don't mind:

1. Wouldn't it make more sense to include US Bank Stadium Station in the underground part, and then only emerge as close as possible to the Blue/Green Line split? There are still a few grade crossings after that stop, and it seems like, to really get the capacity benefits, we'd want to make sure the entire shared segment is grade-separated.

2. I imagine the brief at-grade segment near Target Field would then become the limiting factor for the system. Have you thought at all about how to mitigate the impact of trains having to cross the 2nd Ave/5th St intersection? Or for that matter, the general mess that is gameday foot traffic around the stadium?

3. What makes Downtown an appropriate candidate for cut-and-cover but not North? Just residential impacts during construction, or something more technical?

alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » December 20th, 2020, 3:51 pm

Keep in mind I don't have all the answers here, nobody has studied this closely.

1. Yeah, you could do that as well, I don't have a strong opinion on it. Already the signals for the LRT crossings at 3rd and 4th Streets and 11th Avenue seem to be preempted by the train, so I'm not sure it's a huge need to address. I think the decisive issue would probably be whatever parking infrastructure is below grade at the US Bank Station, and how easy or difficult it might be to untangle that knot.

2. No, I mostly imagine that the low volume of these roads would make it easier to give trains complete signal priority. I think gameday congestion is probably not a frequent enough issue to spend upwards of tens of millions of dollars to address with tunnels.

3. Well, I envision the tunneled segment in North Minneapolis being a diagonal bore, while the downtown segment would be just below the street surface. But of course you could run the North Minneapolis segment underneath the street grid as well, and then it would be fine to build it with cut and cover. That sort of strikes me as the worst of both worlds though, because you've got the added expenses of going underground but the added time that comes from moving orthogonally. I don't know why you'd prefer that approach to simply using surface streets with signal priority.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Silophant » December 20th, 2020, 10:05 pm

My take on a downtown tunnel (no actual studies of course, and I'm extremely not a "physical objects" engineer) is that the way to go would be:

1) Remove the 6th St exit from 394, either by itself or as a part of removing 394 all the way back to the 12th/Linden ramps. Also close the 3rd Ave N entrance, removing that LRT conflict.
2) Have the LRT tracks cut diagonally from 5th St to 6th St through the ground level of the B Ramp (again, no idea if this is structurally feasible. The 2nd Ave bus station and parking ramp entrance would have to be significantly reconfigured or eliminated)
3) Probably close the 2nd/6th intersection to cars (leaving dead-ends on 2nd for access to the Target Center loading dock and a new entrance/exit from the B Ramp) and use the grade change between 2nd and 1st for the portal into a cut and cover tunnel under 6th.
4) Tunnel under 6th St, with a station between Hennepin and Nicollet and a station built into the basement of the Government Center.
5) Turn north through the now-vacant Medical Examiner's building, and move the Stadium Station down to the level of the parking garage beneath it (rebuild the plaza above it, or leave it open to the sky, whichever), and continue the tunnel under the mess of the 4th and Chicago intersection, then pop back up to the existing grade-level tracks east of Chicago. Close the stub of Norm McGrew Place if necessary.
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Bakken2016
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » January 21st, 2021, 7:39 pm

Just attended the Metro Blue Line Extension Community Session hosted by the North Minneapolis Neighborhoods Council and Harrison Neighborhood Association. It looks like we should have some alignments to discuss sometime in March. Project staff are very supportive of serving North Minneapolis and not just bypassing it, like the old alignment. We talked alot about routing it via West Broadway, this gives me a lot of hope for this project!

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » January 22nd, 2021, 8:11 am

Second best news I've heard all week.

Did they discuss at all a tunnel versus at-grade? I'm hoping shared lanes are completely off the table from the start.

Bakken2016
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » January 22nd, 2021, 11:28 am

Second best news I've heard all week.

Did they discuss at all a tunnel versus at-grade? I'm hoping shared lanes are completely off the table from the start.
We definitely talked about both tunnels and elevated rail, neither are off the table. But it was definitely was made known that it would be expensive. Shared lanes were never brought up during the entire night, but I believe it has been said they want this to be a dedicated ROW project.


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SurlyLHT
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » January 22nd, 2021, 12:48 pm

We'll see what they argue. I'm willing to argue that the costs of the project both culturally and in terms of built environment outweigh the benefit to the Northside. Brooklyn Park has a city plan depending on this. Robbinsdale wants it badly for their Downtown area and Golden Valley is hoping it will serve their large employers. These cities don't have great transit connections, North does via standard bus routes and BRT.

I don't see the additional benefit of increased transit benefiting the Northside, nearly as much as it benefits the suburbs. If you invested their percentage of the $$$ already spent on this thing in the Northside, so many of the areas issues would have already been solved. The local government $$$ is better spent directly building the community instead of a modest increase in transit connections.

Misplaced priorities become abundantly clear when you look at how the funding discussions last year regarding the MPD and OVP and see that the total cost of this project's failed plan isn't too far from MPD's yearly budget.

We need investments in people, not infrastructure which connects wealthy suburbs to Downtown.

Bakken2016
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » January 22nd, 2021, 1:00 pm

We'll see what they argue. I'm willing to argue that the costs of the project both culturally and in terms of built environment outweigh the benefit to the Northside. Brooklyn Park has a city plan depending on this. Robbinsdale wants it badly for their Downtown area and Golden Valley is hoping it will serve their large employers. These cities don't have great transit connections, North does via standard bus routes and BRT.

I don't see the additional benefit of increased transit benefiting the Northside, nearly as much as it benefits the suburbs. If you invested their percentage of the $$$ already spent on this thing in the Northside, so many of the areas issues would have already been solved. The local government $$$ is better spent directly building the community instead of a modest increase in transit connections.

Misplaced priorities become abundantly clear when you look at how the funding discussions last year regarding the MPD and OVP and see that the total cost of this project's failed plan isn't too far from MPD's yearly budget.

We need investments in people, not infrastructure which connects wealthy suburbs to Downtown.
Wow, what a completely wrong opinion..... you don't realize how many transit dependent people live in these suburbs and commute to North Minneapolis. That was brought up many times last night.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » January 22nd, 2021, 1:09 pm

We'll see what they argue. I'm willing to argue that the costs of the project both culturally and in terms of built environment outweigh the benefit to the Northside. Brooklyn Park has a city plan depending on this. Robbinsdale wants it badly for their Downtown area and Golden Valley is hoping it will serve their large employers. These cities don't have great transit connections, North does via standard bus routes and BRT.

I don't see the additional benefit of increased transit benefiting the Northside, nearly as much as it benefits the suburbs. If you invested their percentage of the $$$ already spent on this thing in the Northside, so many of the areas issues would have already been solved. The local government $$$ is better spent directly building the community instead of a modest increase in transit connections.

Misplaced priorities become abundantly clear when you look at how the funding discussions last year regarding the MPD and OVP and see that the total cost of this project's failed plan isn't too far from MPD's yearly budget.

We need investments in people, not infrastructure which connects wealthy suburbs to Downtown.
Well Golden Valley is probably out, so they'll just have to improve local transit to where ever the new Blue Line Extension alignment goes. As for cost vs benefit, how much money that will be spent on this project can only be used for transit or transportation purposes? Assuming the feds fund around half of it, that money can only be used for transit, so either we get that money or some other city gets it.

And can we not assume everyone in the suburbs is wealthy, owns a car, and loves driving? Yes most suburbanites own a car, but that doesn't mean they all enjoy it and have the finances for it plus other living expenses. I don't agree with the Blue Line Extension still serving Target North, but I still think the route will do a decent job serving both urban and suburban interests assuming the new alignment goes through North Minneapolis. I'll take that over serving pretty much just some park & ride lots/ramps like a certain commuter rail line.

LakeCharles
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby LakeCharles » January 22nd, 2021, 3:25 pm

We need investments in people, not infrastructure which connects wealthy suburbs to Downtown.
Per Capita Income of the cities on this line (I don't think it'll pass through Golden Valley):

Minneapolis - $22,685
Crystal - $23,163
Brooklyn Park - $23,199
Robbinsdale - $23,912

This is very different than the Green line extension through Wayzata ($64k), Minnetonka($40k) & Eden Prairie ($39k).

alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » January 22nd, 2021, 4:58 pm

We'll see what they argue. I'm willing to argue that the costs of the project both culturally and in terms of built environment outweigh the benefit to the Northside.
Care to explain what you believe to be the "cultural" costs of this project?

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » January 25th, 2021, 9:42 am

A) You're not going to be able to put this through North, unless you tear down a bunch of homes on Penn Ave almost like you would for a freeway and W. Broadway isn't going to work, despite the wishful thinking of Leaders who don't want to admit their failures. See the except from the Alternatives analysis from the past and also putting the LRT down W. Broadway will slow it down and hurt the equation for the time it takes to reach the 'burbs.
B) Quotes like those below indicate the impetus for building this line:

“We see this line as critical to gaining investment that we need,” says Jay Strobel, city manager for Brooklyn Park, which has 1,200 acres to be developed near the line’s north end at Target’s campus, which currently is home to six buildings with more than a million square feet of office space.
“Most of our planning,” Strobel says, “counts on LRT as a development spark [on the north end], while on the south end we expect a lot of job creation.” He believes the campus employed as many as 4,000 people prior to the pandemic."

“The Golden Valley stop is important,” says Mayor Harris. “We have 16,000 more daytime residents than at night. We are a significant employment base: Allianz, Tennant, Courage Kenny, and Honeywell.”"

https://tcbmag.com/is-there-a-way-to-ge ... -on-track/

Bakken2016
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Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Bakken2016 » January 25th, 2021, 9:48 am

A) You're not going to be able to put this through North, unless you tear down a bunch of homes on Penn Ave almost like you would for a freeway and W. Broadway isn't going to work, despite the wishful thinking of Leaders who don't want to admit their failures. See the except from the Alternatives analysis from the past and also putting the LRT down W. Broadway will slow it down and hurt the equation for the time it takes to reach the 'burbs.
B) Quotes like those below indicate the impetus for building this line:

“We see this line as critical to gaining investment that we need,” says Jay Strobel, city manager for Brooklyn Park, which has 1,200 acres to be developed near the line’s north end at Target’s campus, which currently is home to six buildings with more than a million square feet of office space.
“Most of our planning,” Strobel says, “counts on LRT as a development spark [on the north end], while on the south end we expect a lot of job creation.” He believes the campus employed as many as 4,000 people prior to the pandemic."

“The Golden Valley stop is important,” says Mayor Harris. “We have 16,000 more daytime residents than at night. We are a significant employment base: Allianz, Tennant, Courage Kenny, and Honeywell.”"

https://tcbmag.com/is-there-a-way-to-ge ... -on-track/
Except we are not working with the same equation anymore, that has changed since this project original LPA was decided. There is tremendous support for this project to serve North Minneapolis and not bypass it, and I’m sure we will find a way to do that with the least amount of tearing things down.

Golden Valley will have to suck it up, the two stations originally planned were awful locations anyway....


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DanPatchToget
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » January 25th, 2021, 10:55 am

Allianz is nowhere near the original proposed stops in Golden Valley, and any local bus connection between the station and Allianz would take too much time. Tennant and Honeywell are closer and it would be more feasible to have local bus connections to/from the station, but Courage Kenny is the only employer that has a suitable location to directly benefit from the Golden Valley Road Station.

Also this topic is for another thread, but I'll just mention those three other employers are next to a lightly used freight rail line that could be an excellent candidate for regional rail service. Just saying.

As for North Minneapolis, already mentioned is the huge support of rerouting the Blue Line Extension through there. If there's still serious concern about community impacts then they should be willing to at least study a tunnel option.

talindsay
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby talindsay » January 25th, 2021, 11:41 am

Frankly, the old AA documents and the rationale for the old LPA aren't just irrelevant, they're records of why they made the wrong choice at that time. They ruled out as too expensive and slow options that might have been buildable and would have served more people, in the name of a supposedly cheaper and easier route to connect some suburban office parks with downtown. The fact that we're revisiting the whole discussion all these years later is evidence that those decisions were wrong-headed.

That doesn't mean they should ignore the data collected in that process, of course. but the funding formulas of that era are also largely gone now, and were fairly arbitrary in what they did and didn't value. Hennepin County has much more freedom in decisions about funding this line now than they did then, and with any luck, they'll use that greater freedom to make more useful choices.

alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » January 25th, 2021, 1:17 pm

Let's remember that the Central Corridor project was changed extremely late in the process to add stations (increasing end-to-end travel time) in lower income areas. Let's remember that this was made possible by a New Starts formula change that was made explicitly because of that project.

The old logic of "suburban commuters can't waste a minute getting downtown, but Northsiders will be fine taking a bus to the train" is plainly racially and economically biased, and it doesn't apply any more. The politics have changed both locally and nationally, in this case for the better. Minnesota has a very powerful senator on the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation, and if USDOT tried to put the screws in this project for routing through the Northside, then Secretary Buttigeig will hear about it as fast as a stapler can fly.

Don't let funding formula nonsense dissuade Minneapolis from getting a better transit project.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » January 25th, 2021, 1:36 pm

If you had a LRT station at Penn Ave and W. Broadway, what would get Downtown more quickly, the C Line or the LRT? I'm willing to bet the BRT. Popeyes on W. Broadway is only 2 miles from the IDS tower, with the close proximity to Downtown any time savings is little or non-existent. The main benefit to North would be any potential TOD. But, given that Ellison ran on gentrification and the whole UHT project has been enveloped into the prevention of gentrification. I see disruption of W. Broadway through construction and the prospect of gentrification killing this.

alexschief
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alexschief » January 25th, 2021, 1:53 pm

There are more destinations that Northsiders might want to go to than just downtown. The downtown-focused framing is a product of the original LPA's focus on suburban commuters, not Northsiders. The original LPA didn't care a great deal about the travel needs of Northsiders, besides assuming that they were so transit dependent that they would accept a poor quality of transit service that suburbanites would not.

On a different note, denying services to lower income areas because they might gentrify if they got something nice is the absolute wrong way to think about planning a city. That's how you get concentrated, multi-generational poverty and segregation.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby DanPatchToget » January 25th, 2021, 1:58 pm

Fears of gentrification didn't stop us from building the Green Line on University, so I don't see why it should be a different standard for the Blue Line Extension.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby SurlyLHT » January 25th, 2021, 2:04 pm

If anyone wants this actually built, they will go dig into the UHT and see what's going on there. I'm just stating observations and attitudes of the community. Streets.MN has a recent story about biking which talks about bike lanes and fears of gentrification.


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