I've posted about 494 (and pretty much all other road projects) in the roads thread: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1268Do we have another thread somewhere for the 494 project? Anyway, they've got videos up on MNdot's project website that show the current designs for all of the Phase 1 work in some detail. The layout for Portland is shown as being a Tight Diamond, not a Single Point like Lyndale and Penn. Lots of other interesting details in the videos.Is it going to be one of those massive and over-engineered intersections like what they did at Penn and Lyndale across 494?
Also, this project appears to have received a $60m federal grant yesterday.
Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
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- Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
OK, if mods want to move some of this discussion over there, that's cool. Although there might be enough details as this evolves to justify its own thread.
Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
How long will the bus only lanes be on Lake Street
Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
Hopefully at least from the green line to blue line stations. This stretch is so bad I've gotten out and walked faster than the bus traveled. If they can get this section up to a reasonable speed I'd be happy with the B line just being that stretch with the rest being left as the 21.
Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
I've always hated the lack of east/west service in south Minneapolis. Choose between infrequent service or the slow and crowded 21. If they can make route 515 every 15 minutes why not the 23? Or extend the A line to the future E line?Plagiarizing a tweet of mine: Right now, MSP's METRO system isn't a cohesive network. Mostly you use one line and that's it. But in the next three years, that will change dramatically. METRO will go from 4 direct transfers (leaving aside some of the de-facto, but not direct transfers possible in downtown Minneapolis) to 14, and the B Line will account for 6 of them. These expansions will not just add miles to the METRO network, but they will significantly reshape the way that people can use the network by making in-network transfers far more available and useful.
Add the now-funded (or mostly funded) E, F, and Gold Lines, and you get to 23 possible transfers between METRO services alone (again, with a lot of partial transfers in downtown Minneapolis).
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- Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
Here's the "Balanced Bus Priority" concept which they are pushing forward. It will be complicated, they are trying to not just speed up the bus but also add bicycle facilities and slow general traffic.How long will the bus only lanes be on Lake Street
From the latest report (page 116):
In map form:• Full bus-only lanes between Dean Parkway and Dupont Avenue
• A 4-to-3-lane conversion with new left-turn lanes and a single-direction bus-only lane in two segments of Lake Street: from
Dupont Avenue to Blaisdell Avenue and from 5th Avenue to 21st Avenue
• A 4-to-3 lane conversion with new left-turn lanes and bicycle lanes between 28th Avenue and the Mississippi River
• Transit signal priority, queue jump signals, and other intersection treatments for bus priority in Minneapolis
• Bus-specific intersection treatments at five locations in St. Paul (unchanged from the Extensive Bus Priority concept)
I do think we will need to see the detailed sketches before saying anything for sure, but I think there are smart people with the right goals who are working on negotiating this space and that the end result will be pretty positive for the B-Line's speeds.
Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
Maybe there will be something quite surprising in the sketches but as it stands this looks pretty mediocre. It's not clear to me what a single bus lane accomplishes other than making one direction much faster than the other. (I've seen some configurations where one outer lane is bus-only in the morning and the other in the evening, to accommodate peak, but I don't understand how that would apply to Lake, which is perpendicular to the main commute.) The true bus lanes only exist on the overwide highway portion, where they're easiest to implement but matter the least, and vanish around the 35W and Hiawatha chokepoints.Here's the "Balanced Bus Priority" concept which they are pushing forward. It will be complicated, they are trying to not just speed up the bus but also add bicycle facilities and slow general traffic.How long will the bus only lanes be on Lake Street
From the latest report (page 116):In map form:• Full bus-only lanes between Dean Parkway and Dupont Avenue
• A 4-to-3-lane conversion with new left-turn lanes and a single-direction bus-only lane in two segments of Lake Street: from
Dupont Avenue to Blaisdell Avenue and from 5th Avenue to 21st Avenue
• A 4-to-3 lane conversion with new left-turn lanes and bicycle lanes between 28th Avenue and the Mississippi River
• Transit signal priority, queue jump signals, and other intersection treatments for bus priority in Minneapolis
• Bus-specific intersection treatments at five locations in St. Paul (unchanged from the Extensive Bus Priority concept)
I do think we will need to see the detailed sketches before saying anything for sure, but I think there are smart people with the right goals who are working on negotiating this space and that the end result will be pretty positive for the B-Line's speeds.
There's a lot I like about aBRT as an upgrade for local buses, but given that Midtown LRT feels increasingly unlikely to happen, I don't think mixed-traffic (or mixed-traffic-plus) is adequate for the corridor.
Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
I agree with this. I am really curious what estimated performance looks like between Lyndale & Minnehaha (or at minimum between 35W & Hiawatha) for the "balanced bus priority" concept (two separate stretches of one-direction bus lanes) with the under consideration queue jumps at Lyndale, Bloomington, and Cedar vs. full bus lanes.Maybe there will be something quite surprising in the sketches but as it stands this looks pretty mediocre. It's not clear to me what a single bus lane accomplishes other than making one direction much faster than the other. (I've seen some configurations where one outer lane is bus-only in the morning and the other in the evening, to accommodate peak, but I don't understand how that would apply to Lake, which is perpendicular to the main commute.) The true bus lanes only exist on the overwide highway portion, where they're easiest to implement but matter the least, and vanish around the 35W and Hiawatha chokepoints.
There's a lot I like about aBRT as an upgrade for local buses, but given that Midtown LRT feels increasingly unlikely to happen, I don't think mixed-traffic (or mixed-traffic-plus) is adequate for the corridor.
Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
Yes. that's my sense too. The "dedicated" lanes are too short and mostly in the sections where it's easiest, and hence least valuable. The station upgrades will be nice, and the offboard payment and multi-door boarding will help, but I don't think the bus lanes will be nearly enough to fundamentally alter the characteristics of this line.
Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
We should not be prioritizing bikes versus buses in the segments where the single bus lanes are being implemented. We have the greenway right there and bike lanes should also be added onto 31st street. This is one of the most crucial routes that desperately needed dedicated bus lanes in the whole stretch.
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- Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
So the Dupont-Blaisdell and 5th-21st segments would have a bus lane in either the westbound or eastbound direction but not both?Here's the "Balanced Bus Priority" concept which they are pushing forward. It will be complicated, they are trying to not just speed up the bus but also add bicycle facilities and slow general traffic.How long will the bus only lanes be on Lake Street
From the latest report (page 116):In map form:• Full bus-only lanes between Dean Parkway and Dupont Avenue
• A 4-to-3-lane conversion with new left-turn lanes and a single-direction bus-only lane in two segments of Lake Street: from
Dupont Avenue to Blaisdell Avenue and from 5th Avenue to 21st Avenue
• A 4-to-3 lane conversion with new left-turn lanes and bicycle lanes between 28th Avenue and the Mississippi River
• Transit signal priority, queue jump signals, and other intersection treatments for bus priority in Minneapolis
• Bus-specific intersection treatments at five locations in St. Paul (unchanged from the Extensive Bus Priority concept)
I do think we will need to see the detailed sketches before saying anything for sure, but I think there are smart people with the right goals who are working on negotiating this space and that the end result will be pretty positive for the B-Line's speeds.
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- Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
I think the point is to still advocate for full bus lanes!
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- Landmark Center
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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
A single center bus lane with stoplight and intersection priority to transition to the curb side would be a very good usage of space, (allowing both direction ROW busses to take turns) yet I doubt that would work long term..
I don’t think we should build bike lanes on Lake St. seems redundant since the greenway has better ROW and is much safer.. I do think we need better and more connections to allow people to lock up their bike in the trench climb stairs, elevator, or ramp up and go from there on foot.
Focusing on trying to do to much for everyone is just going to end up doing nothing but cause worse congestion and traffic.. I’m worried..
I don’t think we should build bike lanes on Lake St. seems redundant since the greenway has better ROW and is much safer.. I do think we need better and more connections to allow people to lock up their bike in the trench climb stairs, elevator, or ramp up and go from there on foot.
Focusing on trying to do to much for everyone is just going to end up doing nothing but cause worse congestion and traffic.. I’m worried..
Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
To be clear, the report is only considering bike lanes on Lake Street from 28th Avenue and the Mississippi River (where the Greenway is furthest from Lake Street), as well as between E Bde Maka Ska & Hennepin, citing the Minneapolis Transportation Action Plan for those two stretches. I agree on the bus lanes and don't think the B Line can live up to its full potential without full bus lanes between Hennepin & Hiawatha at a bare minimum (which would still be a compromise compared to the "extensive bus priority" concept of full bus lanes all the way to the river).We should not be prioritizing bikes versus buses in the segments where the single bus lanes are being implemented. We have the greenway right there and bike lanes should also be added onto 31st street. This is one of the most crucial routes that desperately needed dedicated bus lanes in the whole stretch.
Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors
Thanks for the clarification. I think that those are fair places to have bike lanes as there is the necessary space for it. As for uptown I think a two way bike path is probably justified too the lake and I would maybe even extend the bike lanes to Girard and have bike traffic turn south from there onto a new trail to 31st street.To be clear, the report is only considering bike lanes on Lake Street from 28th Avenue and the Mississippi River (where the Greenway is furthest from Lake Street), as well as between E Bde Maka Ska & Hennepin, citing the Minneapolis Transportation Action Plan for those two stretches. I agree on the bus lanes and don't think the B Line can live up to its full potential without full bus lanes between Hennepin & Hiawatha at a bare minimum (which would still be a compromise compared to the "extensive bus priority" concept of full bus lanes all the way to the river).We should not be prioritizing bikes versus buses in the segments where the single bus lanes are being implemented. We have the greenway right there and bike lanes should also be added onto 31st street. This is one of the most crucial routes that desperately needed dedicated bus lanes in the whole stretch.
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