Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

[SurlyLHT]

Well, transit isn't a substitute for car travel because even if you can ride the Blue Line to your job at Target, you can't ride it to your friend's house in Lake Elmo or take IKEA furniture home on it.

I do think that "that the suburbs only enthusiastically supported the Bottineau Corridor so long as it didn't actually run in the Bottineau corridor" is somewhat accurate. Reports of how catastrophic the original Blue line was for people in cars reached the northwest suburbs and they don't want the same for Bottineau. Hiawatha has been mitigated a lot with better signal timings, but it's probably going to take more than that promise to appease the suburbs.

Elevating the tracks and station as opposed to the road might turn out to be actually more expensive, since trains require more sturdy bridges than cars, and pedestrian structures have to assume that pedestrians are packed shoulder to shoulder (or so an engineer working on the Winona Bridge told me), so the live load calculations can even be greater.

I have some doubts this line will be competitive to car trips. I live in North and have some friends in Brooklyn Park and Center off of Bottiineau. With that said I don't see myself using this line. There is nothing along it out there. My friends houses are maybe a mile off of Bottineau. It's easier to use the car.

In Minneapolis there is better transit and density...out here this isn't a whole much. The airport doesn't help...it's all near the line and no one lives there.

[StandishGuy]

Ha! I also took the bus to Ikea from central Oslo when studying at the University... just in 1994. I guess we're different generations, huh?

IMO the Green Line is somewhat frustrating between Oak St and downtown St. Paul because it is so slow and the stations are so close together. Does it appear that Blue Line extension planners understand that, and if so, are they doing anything to make sure it doesn't get repeated as the line runs through north Minneapolis? I'm having a hard time envisioning how the Blue Line is going to be any faster.

[gopherfan]

Councilmember Kline of Robbinsdale a blue line extension NIMBY is facing DWI & fleeing charges from a Monday incident. Hopefully he gets the boot and is replaced by a more extension friendly councilmember. Fingers crossed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm4-y39s8v4

[Bakken2016]

Councilmember Kline of Robbinsdale a blue line extension NIMBY is facing DWI & fleeing charges from a Monday incident. Hopefully he gets the boot and is replaced by a more extension friendly councilmember. Fingers crossed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm4-y39s8v4

Here’s hoping!


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[alexschief]

More news from Robbinsdale: https://www.hometownsource.com/sun_post/community/robbinsdale-asks-for-no-build-option-in-ongoing-blue-line-studies/article_9b456304-7e14-11ec-8038-4bf7d0ee5705.html.

Key quote from the City Manager:

In the resolution, the Robbinsdale Council expressed its disapproval of the project office generalizing the three suburbs into a single section. City Manager Marcia Glick said the decision “didn’t make sense.”

“The Robbinsdale segment was grouped in with a completely different segment that you see in Crystal and Brooklyn Park on County Road 81 where you have a very obvious freeway-type feel, a highway feel,” Glick said.

She added that north of Highway 100, the county road changed to a more pedestrian-friendly area, thanks to reconstruction efforts with the county in 2006. The differences include reduced speeds, stop signs at each block, pedestrian crosswalks and right turns into businesses and parks.

(I think there's a typo that should say south of Highway 100?)

I've gone up and down this corridor in the past and I just went over it again in Google Maps. I have to say that while Bottineau Blvd is certainly relatively nicer in Robbinsdale, it's still a road that anyone would consider to be a highway. I'm finding it very hard to understand the town council's nuclear reaction to this, and I suspect the project staff are having the same issue. Nothing they are saying seems to make a lot of sense and they seem to be committed to willfully ignoring reality with BNSF.

[Bakken2016]

More news from Robbinsdale: https://www.hometownsource.com/sun_post/community/robbinsdale-asks-for-no-build-option-in-ongoing-blue-line-studies/article_9b456304-7e14-11ec-8038-4bf7d0ee5705.html.

Key quote from the City Manager:

In the resolution, the Robbinsdale Council expressed its disapproval of the project office generalizing the three suburbs into a single section. City Manager Marcia Glick said the decision “didn’t make sense.”

“The Robbinsdale segment was grouped in with a completely different segment that you see in Crystal and Brooklyn Park on County Road 81 where you have a very obvious freeway-type feel, a highway feel,” Glick said.

She added that north of Highway 100, the county road changed to a more pedestrian-friendly area, thanks to reconstruction efforts with the county in 2006. The differences include reduced speeds, stop signs at each block, pedestrian crosswalks and right turns into businesses and parks.

(I think there's a typo that should say south of Highway 100?)

I've gone up and down this corridor in the past and I just went over it again in Google Maps. I have to say that while Bottineau Blvd is certainly relatively nicer in Robbinsdale, it's still a road that anyone would consider to be a highway. I'm finding it very hard to understand the town council's nuclear reaction to this, and I suspect the project staff are having the same issue. Nothing they are saying seems to make a lot of sense and they seem to be committed to willfully ignoring reality with BNSF.

The link is broken,

https://www.hometownsource.com/sun_post ... e5705.html

So the article mentions not needing municipal consent, what is that about?

[thespeedmccool]

1. Robbinsdale wants 81 to maintain or enhance its "pedestrian feel" south of 100.

2. Metro Transit and Met Council want space for LRT on Bottineau.

3. Hennepin County, like all counties, likes to save its CSAH mileage for high priority regional routes where car traffic is king.

4. Minneapolis wants to cut down on suburban commuters using city streets like Broadway to get downtown.

Solution: Hennepin County turns back 81 south of 100 and Blue Line Extension construction includes a 4-to-2 diet. This also opens up Broadway for more ambitious planning in Minneapolis.

[Bakken2016]

That’s good news, but will it make the final cut in the budget.


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[thespeedmccool]

That’s good news, but will it make the final cut in the budget.


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Almost certainly not. Republicans are out for LRT blood and even DFLers are ticked about the Green Line's troubles and LRT's slow implementation.

[twincitizen]

While yesterday's really bad news on Southwest certainly isn't good for Bottineau's fortunes, remember that Republicans were unlikely to ever support state money going towards light rail again. If I recall correctly, the legislature did not contribute a 10% share of capital costs towards Southwest (as was done for Central Corridor). Prior to Southwest (and prior to CTIB coming undone), the "agreement" for construction costs was 10% state, 40% CTIB, 50% FTA; and operating expenses are supposed to be split 50/50 between the state and CTIB (nowadays just the County). In a compromise deal struck to keep the project moving, I believe Hennepin County picked up the state's 10% share, and were financially able to do so because they were able to double the sales tax from 0.25% to 0.5%. Hennepin is also covering all of the cost overruns on Southwest as well. My memory gets a little foggier here but I think the state also wiggled out of paying for their 50% share of Southwest's operating costs, perhaps as part of a shutdown-ending deal in the Dayton era. The state does still fund 50% of operating costs for the existing Blue and Green Lines.

This is all to say I'm not sure that Bottineau actually needs any specific approval from the legislature to proceed. I'd guess the construction dollars will come entirely from Hennepin County and the FTA. A GOP governor would probably have a lot more power to halt/cancel the project than a GOP legislature (assuming Walz wins). Republicans will almost certainly do everything they can to get the state out of paying that 50% of operating costs for Bottineau.

There are even a few DFLers at the legislature that want to get transit operations out of the general fund budget. They're not anti-transit at all, but they're sick of the biennial fights over it and would prefer that Hennepin's sales tax (whether it goes up another quarter or half cent) cover everything for transit operations. Basically they want to take state/partisan politics out of it entirely and let the counties pay with sales tax funds. With the substantial budget increases for Southwest and Bottineau (we currently have no idea what the new routing will cost), I wouldn't be shocked if Hennepin County asks the legislature to increase that sales tax next year. I wouldn't have high hopes for a sales tax increase getting past a GOP legislature unless they can claim a big win from it (such as no additional state dollars going to LRT capital or operations). The DFL might take that trade, because what other choice is there besides cancelling the project?

[thespeedmccool]

The GOP has settled on a position they think is pretty popular, and I think they're right: aBRT as the future of transit.

While we here in this forum know the operational and functional differences between rail and BRT, every public official has incentive to pretend as if BRT is basically the exact same as rail. The GOP's position for the last few years has been "no more 'guideway' transit," meaning no LRT, commuter rail, or Gold Line-esque BRT projects. To the GOP, most metropolitan residents support transit, but if we can deliver a similar service for 5% of the cost, why wouldn't we do that? They also make a big deal out of the fact that a train can't be moved if it fails; aBRT can't really either, but at least the vehicles are free moving.

If the GOP takes a trifecta (which I highly doubt) they will ban guideway transit, gut the Met Council, and elinimate state subsudies for metropolitan transit, I almost guarantee it. Though it's probably correct that Hennepin County and the Met Council don't need state money to go forward, they do need to be legally allowed to do so.

The DFL isn't in love with the current trajectory either. You have Karla Bigham types who essentially hail from blue-collar exurbs who really hate that the Met Council spends money; you have Scott Dibble types who think Metro Transit should abandon the suburbs; and then you have the mainline "suburban" position that transit is good, but no one wants to or will ride a bus so if it's transit, it has to be a train. A mainstream DFL trifecta would probably include an elected Met Council (maybe ranked-choice?), the "ten new aBRT" lines proposal that's been floated before, and mandates to study transitways to every suburb you can think of.

In light of this, I really appreciate Walz's proposal to throw $200 million at Bottineau; it solidifies that the DFL position is to support rail even in the face of a relatively difficult time. It would be very easy for the DFL as a whole to go the way of Scott Dibble and demand that the Met Council abandon suburban rail projects in favor of urban-only bus lines. Bottineau is an infinitely better concept and proposal than Southwest, so I really hope it doesn't get cancelled because of the latter's shortcomings.

The outcome I'm expecting is that Bottineau and any other future rail projects will be entirely on the metro/counties to fund. The best outcome, in my opinion, is that the Met Council becomes an elected body and that the DFL negotiates a greater taxing authority for them in exchange for the state getting out of transit funds. Right now, the Met Council's "taxing authority" is limited to just $10,000,000 in 2005 dollars, so I think it's a trade worth taking.

[Hero]

Councilmember Kline of Robbinsdale a blue line extension NIMBY is facing DWI & fleeing charges from a Monday incident. Hopefully he gets the boot and is replaced by a more extension friendly councilmember. Fingers crossed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm4-y39s8v4

If only he had a way to get home without driving. Maybe some sort of public transit? A train perhaps?

[Tcmetro]

There is a virtual meeting tomorrow evening to review how comments on the Draft Route Modification Report are being integrated into the route selection process.

METRO Blue Line Extension Project Upcoming Information Session

Thank you for submitting your comments on the Draft Route Modification Report released in December 2021. We are hosting a virtual information session on March 15 to share how your comments are shaping the recommendation of a community supported route for later in the spring of 2022.

Tuesday, March 15, 2022, 5:30 – 7 p.m.

Blue Line meetings page: https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... rials.aspx
Direct link to meeting: https://metrocouncil.webex.com/metrocou ... a55705c40a

[Bakken2016]

So just attended the above meeting. The metrics and goals they have been studying definitely show that the West Broadway routing has the leg up on the Lowry routing. They said to expect a route recommendation in about a month's time.

They also reiterated that this project will take things learned from Hiawatha, Central, and SWLRT and make sure that we hopefully don't run into the same hiccups. That said, Dan Soler said we have experience building LRT in roadways and this project has no tunnels.

[StandishGuy]

The Met Council planners need to learn from other regions like Dallas and Denver who have built extensive Light Rail systems with low ridership that serve mostly low-density, un-walkable suburban areas. It already appears the Blue Line will repeat mistakes made in those cities chasing suburban riders who work downtown with stations surrounded by park and ride lots. This podcast from Colorado Public Radio does an excellent job describing Denver's experience: https://www.cpr.org/podcast/ghost-train/

The lessons from the Blue and Green lines are that serving walkable places with lots of destinations draws riders who commute, but also use it for other trips throughout the day. It also shows that the places along the line become more attractive drawing more and more transit-oriented development. I'm afraid the Blue Line route along Botineau Blvd will fail to become real destinations and remain un-walkable places.

[Bakken2016]

The Met Council planners need to learn from other regions like Dallas and Denver who have built extensive Light Rail systems with low ridership that serve mostly low-density, un-walkable suburban areas. It already appears the Blue Line will repeat mistakes made in those cities chasing suburban riders who work downtown with stations surrounded by park and ride lots. This podcast from Colorado Public Radio does an excellent job describing Denver's experience: https://www.cpr.org/podcast/ghost-train/

The lessons from the Blue and Green lines are that serving walkable places with lots of destinations draws riders who commute, but also use it for other trips throughout the day. It also shows that the places along the line become more attractive drawing more and more transit-oriented development. I'm afraid the Blue Line route along Botineau Blvd will fail to become real destinations and remain un-walkable places.

I definitely feel your concern there, but the portion through North Minneapolis will be great, I’m gonna wait until a route is recommended and engineering is done to pass judgement.


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[Trademark]

The Met Council planners need to learn from other regions like Dallas and Denver who have built extensive Light Rail systems with low ridership that serve mostly low-density, un-walkable suburban areas. It already appears the Blue Line will repeat mistakes made in those cities chasing suburban riders who work downtown with stations surrounded by park and ride lots. This podcast from Colorado Public Radio does an excellent job describing Denver's experience: https://www.cpr.org/podcast/ghost-train/

The lessons from the Blue and Green lines are that serving walkable places with lots of destinations draws riders who commute, but also use it for other trips throughout the day. It also shows that the places along the line become more attractive drawing more and more transit-oriented development. I'm afraid the Blue Line route along Botineau Blvd will fail to become real destinations and remain un-walkable places.

North Minneapolis, North Memorial, Robbinsdale, Crystal, Starlite, North Hennepin Community College are all within walking distances of this stop.

I listened to this podcast last week and just came back from Denver a week and a half ago where I rode their network a bunch and we are nowhere near repeating their problems. Almost all of their stations have access issues. Many of them are in the middle of nowhere.

This is a great route. The only questionable stops in my mind is 93rd Ave (Which provides access to the industrial area), and 63rd Ave (Which as much as I'm not in favor of park and ride's is in a decent location due to its proximity to I-94 and could provide fast bus connections to places like Maple Grove, or even across the river on the other side to Fridley without requiring those buses to travel to far from the freeway). 2 questionable stops in the whole line is not bad at all.

[StandishGuy]

I hope you are right, but the stations past north Minneapolis don't seem that great besides North Memorial and Robinsdale. The land uses, station design and roads are all oriented to people driving to stations, which is exactly what Denver did with abysmal results.

The North Memorial Station options are pretty "meh" and the hospital itself is an island of suburban land use and roadways. Downtown Robinsdale is a small destination surrounded by low density, single-family homes- many with no sidewalks. Is there any location outside of north Minneapolis with potential for significant transit-oriented development?

Let's hope the connectivity provided by the existing LRT lines makes this a success linking up the region. However, I'm afraid the on-street routing is going to make driving still a better option for most people because the train will be too slow. For example, the routing down University Avenue from the Uof MN to St. Paul is already painfully slow. It seems unlikely that someone in the NW suburbs is going to take the train to MOA, EUnited Health Care or downtown St. Paul because it will still be much faster to drive. I very much hope I am wrong, and that this is a big success that reinvigorates transit post-pandemic. And, cities and counties along the route could choose to give signal priority to the train speeding things up...

[Trademark]

I hope you are right, but the stations past north Minneapolis don't seem that great besides North Memorial and Robinsdale. The land uses, station design and roads are all oriented to people driving to stations, which is exactly what Denver did with abysmal results.

The North Memorial Station options are pretty "meh" and the hospital itself is an island of suburban land use and roadways. Downtown Robinsdale is a small destination surrounded by low density, single-family homes- many with no sidewalks. Is there any location outside of north Minneapolis with potential for significant transit-oriented development?

Let's hope the connectivity provided by the existing LRT lines makes this a success linking up the region. However, I'm afraid the on-street routing is going to make driving still a better option for most people because the train will be too slow. For example, the routing down University Avenue from the Uof MN to St. Paul is already painfully slow. It seems unlikely that someone in the NW suburbs is going to take the train to MOA, EUnited Health Care or downtown St. Paul because it will still be much faster to drive. I very much hope I am wrong, and that this is a big success that reinvigorates transit post-pandemic. And, cities and counties along the route could choose to give signal priority to the train speeding things up...

A starlite redevelopment is definitely a possibility opening up TOD. North Hennepin's station has some land available too. Not to mention ridership to one of the biggest community colleges in the area will be significant.

Robbinsdale's downtown while small is a great urban node. And will experience growth with the train and could become a great dining destination right off the train. Crystal has a lot of potential and already a fair amount of apartments in the area.

This is a 100 year investment and in 30 years I expect the areas surrounding these old downtowns to experience a lot of sustainable 5 over 1 mixed use growth. While likely not the 10-15 story buildings that could really maximize our investment. It should still generate a good amount of ridership likely exceeding that of the Southwest Corridor.

Plus another factor to consider is many people who used to live in North Minneapolis have been moving out to Robbinsdale, Crystal, Brooklyn Center, and Brooklyn Park. This train providing connections to many of those areas will also have the added benefit of helping to keep community together by connecting people who moved out to the suburbs with those who stayed.

[Hero]

Any chance they could end at Arbor Lakes instead of an empty field north of 610? I'm not crazy about the faux urbanism that is Arbor Lakes but it has potential. And a lot more possible TOD just west of 169 (not to mention all those massive parking lots at Arbor Lakes). The technical college would be on the way (maybe buy out the surrounding neighborhood and move the community college to the same location? Who knows if Target will even keep that 2nd HQ in the future. Hasn't the trend been away from sprawling suburban office parks?