Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[mamundsen]

Park Board denies request to extend the 180 day closure of the parkway. What do we think will happen if they need additional time?

https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis ... 600138543/

[Bakken2016]

Park Board denies request to extend the 180 day closure of the parkway. What do we think will happen if they need additional time?

https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis ... 600138543/

The Park Board became a lot more conservative with the last election. They are just trying to get money out of the Met Council, it’s basically legal blackmail. I hope Mayor Frey vetos their decision.


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[Bakken2016]

https://metrocouncil.org/Council-Meetin ... 22_35.aspx

Metropolitan Council will be approving a 3 year $40 million delay for the Green Line Extension tomorrow. So I am assuming a 2025/2026 opening.

[acs]

Star Trib is reporting it's more like $210m and 30-34 month delay:

https://www.startribune.com/extra-210m- ... 600139538/

[Bakken2016]

Star Trib is reporting it's more like $210m and 30-34 month delay:

https://www.startribune.com/extra-210m- ... 600139538/

Yep you are right, the $40 million is just has to be paid right away. 30-34 months is basically 3 years.


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[thespeedmccool]

When the GOP takes MN the legislature, this will be the Met Council's Benghazi.

I really don't know who to blame for the absolute bungling of the construction and planning processes. The Council? Contractors? Suburbanites? Hennepin County? I think the blame will get put on the Council as a political play, but who knows.

Really disheartening that this project will essentially be complete in 2023 and not open for another 2 years so construction can be finished on a tunnel that no one wants. I hope planners everywhere are taking notes on how not to plan a transit project.

[Bakken2016]

When the GOP takes MN the legislature, this will be the Met Council's Benghazi.

I really don't know who to blame for the absolute bungling of the construction and planning processes. The Council? Contractors? Suburbanites? Hennepin County? I think the blame will get put on the Council as a political play, but who knows.

Really disheartening that this project will essentially be complete in 2023 and not open for another 2 years so construction can be finished on a tunnel that no one wants. I hope planners everywhere are taking notes on how not to plan a transit project.

The GOP isn’t taking the state legislature…


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[phop]

Not great, but people (other than us nerds) are just going to forget about this again after a few days of criticism unless there's another delay or cost overrun that makes headlines. Also this isn't exactly new info, a substantial delay was already known, there just wasn't any specific timetable until now.

[thespeedmccool]

When the GOP takes MN the legislature, this will be the Met Council's Benghazi.

I really don't know who to blame for the absolute bungling of the construction and planning processes. The Council? Contractors? Suburbanites? Hennepin County? I think the blame will get put on the Council as a political play, but who knows.

Really disheartening that this project will essentially be complete in 2023 and not open for another 2 years so construction can be finished on a tunnel that no one wants. I hope planners everywhere are taking notes on how not to plan a transit project.

The GOP isn’t taking the state legislature…


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Not to get us off track, since this belongs in a politics thread, but the GOP is 100% taking the state legislature. They need to flip four house seats (I'd say they've already bagged 3 based on retirements) and they already have the senate. I'd say there's 90% chance there are Green Line hearings and 70% chance Republicans try to radically alter the structure of the Met Council (whether Walz wins or not.)

[Nick]

A THREE year delay? Lol

[alexschief]

The memo says, "The Council and LMJV have agreed that an additional approximately 34 months is needed to complete the work..."

I assume that means 34 months from the originally expected October 2022 completion date. That would mean completion in August 2025. With additional months for testing and training, my assumption is that SWLRT will finally enter revenue service in Spring 2026.

Here's my official guess: Saturday, March 14th, 2026.

[DanPatchToget]

*knocks on wood* At least we're not Honolulu where their elevated metro has been delayed for at least 2 years, and that's only for the initial segment that doesn't even serve downtown Honolulu and the airport. The rest of the system won't be completed until at least 2031. Also the initial estimated cost was $4 billion, and now it's $12.4 billion.

With that said it's still very disappointing. While I'm sure a tunnel under Uptown would have challenges, and a risk of cost overruns and delays, at least it would very likely be worth it since it's an area where underground light rail makes sense. Building light rail underground just so you don't have to tear down some townhouses that shouldn't have been built in the first place doesn't make sense, and the more complications there are with it the more it looks like the Met Council should've went with a different option.

Hopefully this tunnel mess doesn't discourage us from considering future tunnels for transit like under the downtowns.

[thespeedmccool]

Two positives, I guess:

1. It's not the Washington Purple Line that's gonna run $9 billion and just connect suburb-to-suburb. Cost overruns have been worse before.

2. If we were tunneling LRT under Uptown, you better believe there'd be no talks of bus lanes on Hennepin. We're getting the E Line and a nice road diet out of it, in a way.

[Bakken2016]

Two positives, I guess:

1. It's not the Washington Purple Line that's gonna run $9 billion and just connect suburb-to-suburb. Cost overruns have been worse before.

2. If we were tunneling LRT under Uptown, you better believe there'd be no talks of bus lanes on Hennepin. We're getting the E Line and a nice road diet out of it, in a way.

It's always good to look on the brightside and for silver linings.

[uptownbro]

Every major transit project like this is going to run into major issues. I do think this is a learning experience for all of the parties involved. Dont try and cheap out and if anything the current conversation around the blue line extension shows this. Its aimed at serving people. But I do fear the political backlash over this. The GOP will be running on this. I would still take a subway to uptown over a road diet on Hennepin and the E line

[Anondson]

Are we just inventing a new American way to tunnel in wet soil?

Is this something hiring a Netherlands consultant could give answers?

[DanPatchToget]

Asking for assistance from another country is very un-American. We like to pretend we're experts in everything, even stuff we have zero experience with (e.g. high speed rail, just look at California).

Having been to the Netherlands last month and riding trains everyday around the country, I think it would be quite wise to ask them. Also the Norwegians. Their solution to almost every transportation problem is building a tunnel (including for ships).

[alexschief]

Here's my official guess: Saturday, March 14th, 2026.

Was suggested to me that the 34 month delay might include the testing period, and so this might open around August 8, 2025 instead. It's not clear to me from the memo, but I definitely hope so.

I was reminded that some parts of the project, especially receiving and outfitting the new LRVs and building out the Franklin Yard, won't be affected by construction delays and will now happen way in advance of the completion of the line. So that should save some time at the back end of the project and move the opening date closer to the end of civil work.

[twincitizen]

Summer 2025 being the best case scenario isn't great! If "34 months" doesn't include a testing period, we're probably looking more at December 2025 as best case. At any rate, that's 2+ years later than was projected when they began initial construction. Late 2023 was pretty official, right? (before the tunneling issues mounted).

Tangent warning: It's probably time to start talking about opening the line for service between Eden Prairie and Beltline (or West Lake Station if possible) on time as planned.

If everything west of West Lake Station is completed by summer 2023 as planned, plus a few months of testing, what's to stop them from putting that portion of the line into service? It would be a steep operational expense, obviously, to run a separate line that doesn't connect to the rest of the system, for relatively little ridership gained. Plus you'd have to run connecting buses between Beltline and Target Field. If they can run trains into West Lake Station, that would be slightly better for riders not going downtown, as they could transfer to the B Line on Lake Street, which should also open in late '23 (or at least by June '24). I'm guessing there would be some capital expenses incurred as well, such as having to install those "train stopper" thingies at the temporary end-of-line. Plus you'd have to call it something other than "Green Line" until it connects, so there would be a small amount of money wasted on signage and maps calling it "Southwest Line". And likely there would have to be some kind of work done with the electric power system and signaling infrastructure to run this piece separately.

So there are a lot of reasons not to do it (high operating costs, capital expenses necessary to do it would be wasteful, ridership would be low and force everyone onto a connecting bus for 2+ years, and perhaps most of all it would just magnify the tunnel boondoggle for 2+ years). The only reasons TO do it is that the line and stations are just going to be sitting there 100% complete and the suburban communities may start to get restless due to all of the development happening along the line. Another good reason to do it would be the connections to suburban jobs (and this argument is stronger if it can end at West Lake rather than Beltline, due to the B Line connection to communities along Lake Street).

Any thoughts on that?

[exiled_antipodean]

Obviously it would be a huge embarrassment and our legal/planning system makes it even more time consuming ... but would be really curious if it would in an engineering sense just be quicker to stop the digging, refill it, take out the townhomes, and build at grade with signals to control the conflicts with freight rail that occur less than daily.

https://transportist.org/2014/10/26/a-one-track-mind-2/