Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[kellonathan]

IIRC, a dedicated maintenance base for SWLRT (in Hopkins) was deleted from the plan, so there wouldn't be a place to park and do maintenance works for the trains, notwithstanding trucking in/hauling out trains from/to the rest of the LRT system.

EDIT: Seems like they did keep the O&M facility in Hopkins but significantly downsized from the original plan. If the new facility is not equipped to handle heavy maintenance work, I think my point of the challenges associated with hauling in/out trains from/to the rest of the system still stands.

[DanPatchToget]

Summer 2025 being the best case scenario isn't great! If "34 months" doesn't include a testing period, we're probably looking more at December 2025 as best case. At any rate, that's 2+ years later than was projected when they began initial construction. Late 2023 was pretty official, right? (before the tunneling issues mounted).

Tangent warning: It's probably time to start talking about opening the line for service between Eden Prairie and Beltline (or West Lake Station if possible) on time as planned.

If everything west of West Lake Station is completed by summer 2023 as planned, plus a few months of testing, what's to stop them from putting that portion of the line into service? It would be a steep operational expense, obviously, to run a separate line that doesn't connect to the rest of the system, for relatively little ridership gained. Plus you'd have to run connecting buses between Beltline and Target Field. If they can run trains into West Lake Station, that would be slightly better for riders not going downtown, as they could transfer to the B Line on Lake Street, which should also open in late '23 (or at least by June '24). I'm guessing there would be some capital expenses incurred as well, such as having to install those "train stopper" thingies at the temporary end-of-line. Plus you'd have to call it something other than "Green Line" until it connects, so there would be a small amount of money wasted on signage and maps calling it "Southwest Line". And likely there would have to be some kind of work done with the electric power system and signaling infrastructure to run this piece separately.

So there are a lot of reasons not to do it (high operating costs, capital expenses necessary to do it would be wasteful, ridership would be low and force everyone onto a connecting bus for 2+ years, and perhaps most of all it would just magnify the tunnel boondoggle for 2+ years). The only reasons TO do it is that the line and stations are just going to be sitting there 100% complete and the suburban communities may start to get restless due to all of the development happening along the line. Another good reason to do it would be the connections to suburban jobs (and this argument is stronger if it can end at West Lake rather than Beltline, due to the B Line connection to communities along Lake Street).

Any thoughts on that?

The biggest issue with that would be maintaining the LRV fleet operating the West Lake-Eden Prairie segment. The Hopkins facility will only be for storage of the LRVs, not maintenance, so when a LRV needs some kind of maintenance it's either out-of-service for a long time or they have to bring maintenance crew and materials to the Hopkins facility to do work on it (not sure if that would even be possible, likely depends on the severity of maintenance work needed).

[Silophant]

I believe that's correct. If it could be worked out, though, I don't think running them separately would require a new name - Barcelona has been running their L9 and L10 lines as disconnected North and South portions since 2019 until the delayed tunnel to connect them is complete, which is currently scheduled for 2025.

Either way, though, I'd hope that they can at least start running it to Bryn Mawr or 21st St Station (depending on where crossovers are, etc), when the portion east of the tunnel is done. No reason to leave those completed stations that connect to the rest of the Green Line unused.

[HuskyGrad]

Summer 2025 being the best case scenario isn't great! If "34 months" doesn't include a testing period, we're probably looking more at December 2025 as best case. At any rate, that's 2+ years later than was projected when they began initial construction. Late 2023 was pretty official, right? (before the tunneling issues mounted).

Tangent warning: It's probably time to start talking about opening the line for service between Eden Prairie and Beltline (or West Lake Station if possible) on time as planned.

If everything west of West Lake Station is completed by summer 2023 as planned, plus a few months of testing, what's to stop them from putting that portion of the line into service? It would be a steep operational expense, obviously, to run a separate line that doesn't connect to the rest of the system, for relatively little ridership gained. Plus you'd have to run connecting buses between Beltline and Target Field. If they can run trains into West Lake Station, that would be slightly better for riders not going downtown, as they could transfer to the B Line on Lake Street, which should also open in late '23 (or at least by June '24). I'm guessing there would be some capital expenses incurred as well, such as having to install those "train stopper" thingies at the temporary end-of-line. Plus you'd have to call it something other than "Green Line" until it connects, so there would be a small amount of money wasted on signage and maps calling it "Southwest Line". And likely there would have to be some kind of work done with the electric power system and signaling infrastructure to run this piece separately.

So there are a lot of reasons not to do it (high operating costs, capital expenses necessary to do it would be wasteful, ridership would be low and force everyone onto a connecting bus for 2+ years, and perhaps most of all it would just magnify the tunnel boondoggle for 2+ years). The only reasons TO do it is that the line and stations are just going to be sitting there 100% complete and the suburban communities may start to get restless due to all of the development happening along the line. Another good reason to do it would be the connections to suburban jobs (and this argument is stronger if it can end at West Lake rather than Beltline, due to the B Line connection to communities along Lake Street).

Any thoughts on that?

The OMF was valued engineered out, so vehicles will originate from the existing OMFs at Frankline and downtown St. Paul.

[twincitizen]

I thought they made the Hopkins OMF smaller, not eliminated it entirely. My recollection of the change is there will still be a facility for overnight vehicle storage, cleaning, and light maintenance, but it would not accommodate major overhaul type repairs, which would be done at the existing OMFs. I clearly recall that change being announced at some point in the process, but not a later change to eliminate it entirely. Are they not building this right now? https://www.hopkinsmn.com/163/Operation ... e-Facility

EDIT:

MnDOT CRU and FTA identified two scope changes and several Civil Construction addenda items that necessitated revision of the Project’s Archaeological and Architecture/History APEs. One of these scope changes included the expansion of the existing Franklin OMF. The Hopkins OMF, included in the scope when FTA issued its Section 106 final determination of effect for the Project on November 10, 2015, was removed. The Hopkins site will include a rail support facility (RSF). Operations and maintenance functions previously included at Hopkins OMF will be accommodated at the existing Franklin OMF that was originally constructed to serve the METRO Blue Line. Franklin OMF will require modifications to increase capacity and expand. The size of the OMF will not change. The Franklin OMF expansion was previously part of the Blue Line Extension LRT Project (SHPO #2011-3773). Franklin OMF was transferred from the Blue Line Extension LRT Project to the Southwest Line Rail Transit Project in Q4 2018.

Is that no longer correct?

[Silophant]

It was eliminated entirely at some point. The 100% plans still show a "Rail Support Facility" at that location, but it must just be for track maintenance trucks or something, there's no rail connection to the building.

[twincitizen]

Oh that's wild. After tearing down a few existing light industrial buildings too. I recall (going back like a decade) that Hopkins wasn't thrilled about the business displacement and loss of tax base due to Met Council's decision to locate the facility there. The tradeoff was that there would be a bunch of good-paying blue collar jobs at the facility. And instead Hopkins is just getting another giant park & ride lot and zero maintenance jobs. Whoops.

Hopkins should probably update their website! https://www.hopkinsmn.com/163/Operation ... e-Facility

So with all trains originating elsewhere, I suppose that means Shady Oak will not accommodate driver shift changes, breaks, etc.? That would seem to make the system a lot more fragile.

[Record Machine]

Excuse my ignorance, but in a post-covid world where a large percentage, if not outright majority, of suburbanites will be working from home and downtown continues to evolve into less of a CBD, is a project like this still worth the resources?

[Bakken2016]

Excuse my ignorance, but in a post-covid world where a large percentage, if not outright majority, of suburbanites will be working from home and downtown continues to evolve into less of a CBD, is a project like this still worth the resources?

Well the LRT is designed for reverse commute trips, and 60%+ of jobs can’t be done from home. Also, with this project now opening in 2026, the COVID landscape could be entirely different, we are going to have to live with COVID, just like we do with the flu.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thespeedmccool]

Excuse my ignorance, but in a post-covid world where a large percentage, if not outright majority, of suburbanites will be working from home and downtown continues to evolve into less of a CBD, is a project like this still worth the resources?

Yes.

[twincitizen]

It was eliminated entirely at some point. The 100% plans still show a "Rail Support Facility" at that location, but it must just be for track maintenance trucks or something, there's no rail connection to the building.

Hmm...no rail connection to the building but I do see there is a pocket track included. I wonder what that's about. Looks just long enough (600') to hold two three-car trainsets. I'm unsure what that means though. Would a limited number of drivers be able to begin a shift here / shift changes throughout the day? I suppose that would require those trains being left there unattended all night. Seems more likely the pocket track is only for emergency purposes like equipment failures and whatnot.

[Bakken2016]

https://twitter.com/byjanetmoore/status ... 30496?s=21

[Silophant]

Okay, it seems worthwhile to at least explore filling the tunnel in and single-tracking (or gauntlet-tracking?) through that area.

[thespeedmccool]

I do not understand how they expect the work to be done in June 2025 and plan on opening in 2027.

Honestly, I imagine they're setting such a late date to buffer against future delays.

Absolute clownshow all around, from Uptown NIMBYs to inept contractors to the spineless council that let it all happen.

It will be really interesting to read the report that will probably get delayed until 2040.

[commissioner]

ANY hope of getting more light rail politically just went out the window.

[uptownbro]

2027 cant be correct? If it is we will not be getting any new lines for a long time. If the met council really screwed this up this badly idk what to say
https://www.startribune.com/southwest-l ... 600139933/

[Bakken2016]

2027 cant be correct? If it is we will not be getting any new lines for a long time. If the met council really screwed this up this badly idk what to say
https://www.startribune.com/southwest-l ... 600139933/

I feel like it is more underpromise, overdeliver. Planning/Construction for other LRT and BRT routes will go on. Many places continue to build new lines while others are under construction.

[DanPatchToget]

Remember when it was hoped that Southwest would be open by 2015? I miss those times.

[Trademark]

I'm speechless. 2027!!!!

[mattaudio]

Bring back 3C