County Road 42 BRT

[Bakken2016]

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So apparently MVTA is doing a feasibility study for County Road 42 Bus Rapid Transit.

[Trademark]

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So apparently MVTA is doing a feasibility study for County Road 42 Bus Rapid Transit.

I remember seeing a note in the Apple Valley 2040 transportation plan about this being a future project. I think it would be great for east west access and could expand the usefulness of the Red Line and the Orange Line extension. I wonder the how far they are studying. Is it going as far west as Savage? Prior Lake? As far east as Dakota Community College?

[Bakken2016]

I assume that the scope of the project would be defined in the feasibility study. I would hope they would start local service to see how the corridor does before investing millions into another BRT route with poor ridership. As well, I could see MVTA operating this outside of the METRO system due to their pettiness over the Red Line. Watch them call it like MVTA Swift/Rapid/ etc....

[Tcmetro]

MVTA serves the 42 corridor from Savage to Rosemount along two routes. Both operate hourly, but could maybe get some more frequent service.

I don't think it's a great corridor for BRT, but some service improvements and better bus stops would be helpful. The county wants to further restrict access to the road, so I am worried that the walk ability will actually decrease over time.

[J. Mc]

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[DanPatchToget]

Nice to see MVTA has money to burn. They don't need a consulting firm to figure out any form of BRT, whether it's like the A Line or the future Gold Line, wouldn't be a good investment for County Road 42.

[Trademark]

Nice to see MVTA has money to burn. They don't need a consulting firm to figure out any form of BRT, whether it's like the A Line or the future Gold Line, wouldn't be a good investment for County Road 42.

It's not about immediate return on ridership. This corridor has a lot of potential to grow.

When you combine future redevelopmemt at the Burnsville Center, the Red Line, and the pit next to Pilot Knob with decent destinstions like a diversion to downtown Rosemount and Prior Lake, Dakota County Community College, and Mystic Lake. You create the most sensible long term corridor for frequent bus in Dakota County.

Is it the smartest investment for the whole metro? No, and metro transit should not pay for this. But they won't be. MVTA very clearly wants to be its own network. Let them make the best transit for their cities.

I see east west service in Dakota County changing MVTA from an agency that heavily relies on its commuter express park and ride service into one that allows all day usage and connects neighborhoods. Building the transit first and giving it bus lanes will send a signal that this corridor can support decent liveable suburban TOD development.

Development will continue in the suburbs regardless, and especially if the number of lower income people priced put of the metro continues. Density could pop up quick. MN suburbs are not opposed to density if its planned think of places like Huntington Park in Brooklyn Park, or Lake Pointe in Brooklyn Center, or the areas around Kelley Park in Apple Valley. Would we rather it be connecting them to shopping centers grocery stores, colleges, a future Dan Patch Line Station, and 2 fast BRT lines taking them to the mall and downtown. This greatly expand the number of people who have access to frequent transit.

It's not like we aren't building in the metro. In the next 10 years: 8 aBRT lines 2 light rails and 2 BRT lines that all go through at least one downtown will open. Nothing besides a short Orange Line extension will be built in MVTA territory.

[DanPatchToget]

Nice to see MVTA has money to burn. They don't need a consulting firm to figure out any form of BRT, whether it's like the A Line or the future Gold Line, wouldn't be a good investment for County Road 42.

It's not about immediate return on ridership. This corridor has a lot of potential to grow.

When you combine future redevelopmemt at the Burnsville Center, the Red Line, and the pit next to Pilot Knob with decent destinstions like a diversion to downtown Rosemount and Prior Lake, Dakota County Community College, and Mystic Lake. You create the most sensible long term corridor for frequent bus in Dakota County.

Is it the smartest investment for the whole metro? No, and metro transit should not pay for this. But they won't be. MVTA very clearly wants to be its own network. Let them make the best transit for their cities.

I see east west service in Dakota County changing MVTA from an agency that heavily relies on its commuter express park and ride service into one that allows all day usage and connects neighborhoods. Building the transit first and giving it bus lanes will send a signal that this corridor can support decent liveable suburban TOD development.

Development will continue in the suburbs regardless, and especially if the number of lower income people priced put of the metro continues. Density could pop up quick. MN suburbs are not opposed to density if its planned think of places like Huntington Park in Brooklyn Park, or Lake Pointe in Brooklyn Center, or the areas around Kelley Park in Apple Valley. Would we rather it be connecting them to shopping centers grocery stores, colleges, a future Dan Patch Line Station, and 2 fast BRT lines taking them to the mall and downtown. This greatly expand the number of people who have access to frequent transit.

It's not like we aren't building in the metro. In the next 10 years: 8 aBRT lines 2 light rails and 2 BRT lines that all go through at least one downtown will open. Nothing besides a short Orange Line extension will be built in MVTA territory.

MVTA clearly isn't making the best transit for their cities. Doesn't mean it's terrible, but I don't think a competing route with the Red Line, the "4Fun Bus", and this study of BRT on a massive car sewer are in the best interests of the south metro.

If you've ever waited for a bus along County Road 42 then you know how unpleasant it is. You won't find many people willing to wait for a bus along there unless the frequency was every 2 minutes. I highly doubt County Road 42 would be calmed for BRT, so to directly serve destinations like the ones you mentioned and not have people standing along a stroad you'll need a lot of deviations off County Road 42, which isn't optimal if one of your goals is faster travel time.

[Tcmetro]

MVTA has pivoted way better than any of the other agencies in the metro since the pandemic started. They've added midday and weekend service to a lot of their existing local routes and added some new connections that didn't exist. They scaled the express bus network back significantly to meet demand. The 4Fun bus line is something that should exist. Every other agency treats recreational trips as if they are unholy, which severely limits the attractiveness of transit.

Of course, MVTA can only do so much. They are at the whims of the county engineering departments that call for four lane divided highways, with half-mile access spacing, full shoulders, excess ROW, and a tree clear zone.

One thing Dakota County has done well is lobby for transit. Despite all the poor planning and bad road design, they continuously worked towards making the Red Line and the Orange Line a reality, and pushed for studies of Robert St. Of course there's better places to invest money in transit in the metro area, but when you see White Bear Lake actively refusing transit, it makes it so much easier for Burnsville and Apple Valley to take those dollars.

[DanPatchToget]

MVTA has pivoted way better than any of the other agencies in the metro since the pandemic started. They've added midday and weekend service to a lot of their existing local routes and added some new connections that didn't exist. They scaled the express bus network back significantly to meet demand. The 4Fun bus line is something that should exist. Every other agency treats recreational trips as if they are unholy, which severely limits the attractiveness of transit.

Of course, MVTA can only do so much. They are at the whims of the county engineering departments that call for four lane divided highways, with half-mile access spacing, full shoulders, excess ROW, and a tree clear zone.

One thing Dakota County has done well is lobby for transit. Despite all the poor planning and bad road design, they continuously worked towards making the Red Line and the Orange Line a reality, and pushed for studies of Robert St. Of course there's better places to invest money in transit in the metro area, but when you see White Bear Lake actively refusing transit, it makes it so much easier for Burnsville and Apple Valley to take those dollars.

If MVTA would provide ridership and subsidy data on their routes then maybe I'd agree the 4Fun Bus should exist in some form, but for now it's unknown and I question how much ridership that route can get with stops only at Mall of America, Valley Fair, Canterbury Park, Marschall Road Transit Station, and Mystic Lake Casino. Also as I mentioned in another thread, Route 465 still runs at off-peak hours despite the Orange Line using nearly the same route.

Since MVTA probably doesn't have the influence to make County Road 42 more friendly for pedestrians, bikers, and transit users, then BRT on that road should be a no-go. In the past there was a request for funding a pedestrian bridge at the Red Line's 140th or 147th Street Station, which should be an indication that the road isn't built for transit users who are all either pedestrians or bikers. If BRT on County Road 42 ever became reality I can see requests for funding pedestrian bridges every few miles because of how unsafe it is to cross without a vehicle. Stroads like County Road 42 shouldn't exist to begin with, and they definitely shouldn't have BRT.

White Bear Lake refusing to have the Purple Line in their downtown doesn't mean transit dollars become available for Dakota County cities.

[Tcmetro]

The point is that MVTA is trying to expand transit to be more well-rounded. If MVTA continued to run all their downtown express trips during the pandemic, the subsidy would be high as well. At a minimum, MVTA is re-defining what transit is to them and is pivoting away from a 9-5 downtown commuter network. It's likely that remote working will continue to be a trend to some degree and the downtown commuting market will be permanently altered - so transit agencies need to change to justify their existence. Compared to Maple Grove, Plymouth, and Southwest Transit that are still focused on the downtown commuter, MVTA is doing so much better for their service area.

Of course, it may all be a moot point. Covid funding from the federal government is going to come to an end at some point, and if ridership and revenues haven't recovered, big service cuts are likely.

One of the recommendations from the recent CR 42 Vision Study was for better bus stops. Certainly, the $359,000 study is related to that. The majority of the suburbs are designed to be hostile to transit users - should transit just give up on the suburbs and only invest in Minneapolis & St. Paul? Keep in mind that Dakota County collects tax revenue for transit and isn't going to donate it to other counties to spend. If other areas in the metro are more deserving of money, perhaps they should consider raising it.

My point about White Bear Lake isn't that the Purple Line money will go to Dakota County. It's that the money will indirectly get there through the constant persistence of the county and the cities in applying to grant programs to make their projects happen. When cities and counties are uninterested or actively hostile to transit, it means that weaker projects from cities that are transit-supportive are much more likely to be built. From what I have seen, Apple Valley, Dakota County, and MVTA continue to support the 140th and 147th bridge projects, and the 140th St bridge is likely to be built soon.

[Trademark]

Also the 42 BRT has been mentioned in Apple Valley, and Burnsvilles 2040 plans as well as the Scott County Unified Transit Management Study. Will 42 be a significantly calmed street? No. But transit can still succeed on a wide road. If the crossings are timed with pedestrians in mind and dense development is built within the walkshed the corridor can still be useful.

I don't think many non urbanists really care about waiting for a bus on 42. If the bus comes frequent, if it's fast, and if it can connect them to destinations. That's all that matters to most people.

[Mdcastle]

Maybe if frequent, fast buses aren't enough and we need to make the bus stops plusher, we can put in frozen yogurt machines.

[Oreos&Milk]

Question - When the Apple Valley Walmart Scooters take the Co. Rd. 42 BRT to the Lakeville Hyvee will they be ALSO counted as a rider? Thereby inflating the ridership numbers or will just the Walmart customer riding the stollen -eh I mean borrowed scooter be counted?

But in all seriousness, I question its effectiveness for the investment needed.. I would like that study to also weigh other options for the costs as other alternatives.
Mainly hiring Lyft to operate an electric bike system that recoups much of the investment. A nice ride like system to transform the corridor could be a cheaper alternative that improves mobility. Much of the usage of a BRT system would only need shuttle busses, maybe 40ft busses during peak times only. We invested so much in building trails along both sides of the roadway I think this project should include promoting other mobility options that are less expensive!

From there stores could sponsor adding a station directly in front of their store once demand warrents the investment! I'm sure Target easily be able to sponsor stations at all FOUR of their Super Target stores! Paired with a reasonable scale BRT it might actually have some value.

I know riding a bike along such a massive roadway with such high traffic isn't the most enjoyable but I think with the right bike-share infrastructure and increased bike racks we deffently could see more riders utalizing the existing trail. Those pinchpoints where the trail turns into sidewalk only or exist on only one side of the roadway will no doubt have to be upgraded long term but I see MUCH potential long term.

Also if the Western terminus is NOT at Mystic Lake OR Canterbury park or Valleyfair that would be a grave mistake. Also an Eastern terminus at DCTC would ensure MANY kids could attend classes via dependable transit from the Applevalley/burnsville/lakeville area that alone I think would be of high value. Plus maybe a downtown Rosemont detour.. And maybe even going to downtown Prior lake via Hwy 13 before Mystic Lake? Plus a future Orange Line extension station? Long term it might be a decent transit corridor.

Lots of apartments in the area, I just wonder if this is enough to get those people hoping on bikes and busses instead of jumping in their cars.

[Oreos&Milk]

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Oooooooooooooooo!!!


I want one over 42 & Mystic Lake Dr. connecting Mystic Lake to Caterbury Park to Valley Fair to the 169 bike trail!

I want one over 42 & Burnsville Center that connects 35W & Kenrick Park & Ride to Buck Hill to Burnsville Center to Minnesota River & 35W crossing!

I want a Cedar Ave & 42 Tunnel crossings (allowing for left turns in all directions oooooo!)

I want a Flagstaff bridge crossing

I want a Hwy 3 bridge crossing for a new bike trail into downtown Rosemont that ties into Chippendale Ave from the southern side!

and I want a pedestrian bridge (able to be expanded to a bike trail if the demand warrants it down the line) across 42 and DCTC.
I love your vision!