Downtown Minneapolis LRT Tunnel Discussion

[alexschief]

I mentioned this recently on Twitter, but this month the FTA made some substantial revisions to the entry requirements of the Core Capacity CIG program, which (to avoid getting too technical) significantly eased the crowding metrics needed to qualify.

It continues to bug me that there hasn't been a lot of public acknowledgement of the issues that will be faced by Blue and Green Line trains post 2027, which the SWLRT opens and the delays in downtown will both become more challenging to deal with operationally and more consequential to riders, who may now be looking to travel through the downtown.

There's really never been a better time to start thinking about a Core Capacity tunnel project in the downtown area, even if the political environment is challenging right now.

[Tom H.]

I'm sorry if I'm missing something, but will the SWLRT and/or BLRT extensions comming online actually impact volumes through the downtown shared portion? As long as headways stay the same, it really doesn't matter how far the lines extend in either direction beyond the shared track.

In other words, if Green Line trains are running every 15 minutes, it really doesn't matter (for downtown track capactiy purposes) whether those trains stop at Target Field Station, or continue to Eden Prairie. It's still one train every 15 minutes. These are extensions of existing lines, not new lines altogether.

Now, if there are plans to shorten headways (which I would support) in conjunction with the line extensions opening, that would create capacity issues.

[MNdible]

I think you're correct. That said, right now for trains departing from Target Field, they're able to tightly control departure times since it's the terminal station, meaning that (at least for trains heading east) they're able to ensure proper spacing. That would no longer be the case, when in the future trains arriving at Target Field will be dependent on the vagaries of their previous stops.

[Bakken2016]

It currently takes 10 minutes to go from Target Field Station to US Bank Stadium Station, I'm also for a tunnel just so that timing could be shaved down. The amount of delays at intersections is unreal some times.

[Tcmetro]

With a tunnel, the number of stops would probably be cut to only two or three in the downtown area. The trains would run faster but people would also have to walk further. It probably wouldn't be a big time saver.

Nicollet Mall needs some kind of expansion - too bad the Gaviidae Commons building has a parking entrance on 5th St. The other stations are probably fine from a capacity standpoint.

I don't get the two stations at Target Field thing - what an incredible waste of money.

[Tom H.]

A counterpoint to the station spacing - if well-designed, underground stations can have two access points that effectively allow the station to serve two streets / intersections at once. For example - one could imagine an underground station physically situated between Hennepin and Nicollet, but with two escalators exiting on each street, shortening most folks' walking routes. Emphasis on "well-designed", however.

[grant1simons2]

With a tunnel, the number of stops would probably be cut to only two or three in the downtown area. The trains would run faster but people would also have to walk further. It probably wouldn't be a big time saver.

Nicollet Mall needs some kind of expansion - too bad the Gaviidae Commons building has a parking entrance on 5th St. The other stations are probably fine from a capacity standpoint.

I don't get the two stations at Target Field thing - what an incredible waste of money.

The fact that Both Hennepin and Nicollet have a stop rather than being midblock I thought was always stupid.

[commissioner]

With a tunnel, the number of stops would probably be cut to only two or three in the downtown area. The trains would run faster but people would also have to walk further. It probably wouldn't be a big time saver.

Nicollet Mall needs some kind of expansion - too bad the Gaviidae Commons building has a parking entrance on 5th St. The other stations are probably fine from a capacity standpoint.

I don't get the two stations at Target Field thing - what an incredible waste of money.

If I remember right, when they built the second station when Northstar started, the original Target field station was only going to used for Twins games and the new one was going to be used all the time. somehow that apparently changed.

[Bakken2016]

With a tunnel, the number of stops would probably be cut to only two or three in the downtown area. The trains would run faster but people would also have to walk further. It probably wouldn't be a big time saver.

Nicollet Mall needs some kind of expansion - too bad the Gaviidae Commons building has a parking entrance on 5th St. The other stations are probably fine from a capacity standpoint.

I don't get the two stations at Target Field thing - what an incredible waste of money.

The fact that Both Hennepin and Nicollet have a stop rather than being midblock I thought was always stupid.

I think partially the decision behind that is that when the Blue Line was constructed it ended at Hennepin instead of Target Field like it does today. Possibly needed enough room for switches and such since it was the previous terminus for 5 years before Target Field was built.

[HuskyGrad]

I don't get the two stations at Target Field thing - what an incredible waste of money.

I recall hearing that the original Target Field station is still operating due to FTA funding being used. There's usually as sunset date on requiring the return of FTA funds should a piece of infrastructure be longer used.

[Bakken2016]

I don't get the two stations at Target Field thing - what an incredible waste of money.

I recall hearing that the original Target Field station is still operating due to FTA funding being used. There's usually as sunset date on requiring the return of FTA funds should a piece of infrastructure be longer used.

It's also used for capacity after Target Field events, Blue Line and Green Line use the platforms separately after Twins Games and concerts.

[StandishGuy]

Agreed. The LRT route through downtown is painfully slow due to traffic signals and the Nicollet and Hennepin stops being so close together. Cities including Dallas, Austin Edmondton and Portland are either planning or constructing tunnels through their downtowns. It seems the concept isn't even on the radar here, however.

The debacle with the Kenniworth tunnel combined with lower ridership and downtown office vacancy likely won't help to move it onto n the wish list anytime soon.

However, it does seem like the region is scheduled to reconsider transit projects sometime soon now that the Green and Gold Lines are under construction, the Orange Line is done and the Blue is finishing up planning.

[Tom H.]

Does anyone know how much the 0.5% transit sales tax brings in annually in Hennepin County? Is that revenue stream partially obligated to operations, or would it be unobligated and available for new capital projects (like a tunnel)?

[Silophant]

Agreed. The LRT route through downtown is painfully slow due to traffic signals and the Nicollet and Hennepin stops being so close together. Cities including Dallas, Austin Edmondton and Portland are either planning or constructing tunnels through their downtowns. It seems the concept isn't even on the radar here, however.

The debacle with the Kenniworth tunnel combined with lower ridership and downtown office vacancy likely won't help to move it onto n the wish list anytime soon.

However, it does seem like the region is scheduled to reconsider transit projects sometime soon now that the Green and Gold Lines are under construction, the Orange Line is done and the Blue is finishing up planning.

If anything, I would think a lower percentage of downtown-bound riders would make the need for a tunnel more apparent. Right now, only the minority of riders using Target Field or Hennepin stations really face the full delays from the current mess, but people riding from St. Louis Park to the University, or from Robbinsdale to the airport will have to deal with the whole thing.

[MNdible]

As somebody who almost never rides LRT into downtown, how bad is the problem actually? And how much is it an operational problem that some dedicated tweaking of traffic signals and maybe supervision of station operations, or maybe stop consolidation, could fix?

While the idea of a downtown tunnel sounds dreamy, it will come at an enormous cost, and I'm really not convinced that our transit system doesn't have better things to be spending the money on.

[HuskyGrad]

Cities including Dallas, Austin Edmondton and Portland are either planning or constructing tunnels through their downtowns.

Planning would be a loose term when referring to Portland. It's a ways out after the current three projects.

The time savings through downtown Portland would be roughly 16 minutes and would increase ridership somewhere around 20,000 per day.

[BigIdeasGuy]

As somebody who almost never rides LRT into downtown, how bad is the problem actually? And how much is it an operational problem that some dedicated tweaking of traffic signals and maybe supervision of station operations, or maybe stop consolidation, could fix?

While the idea of a downtown tunnel sounds dreamy, it will come at an enormous cost, and I'm really not convinced that our transit system doesn't have better things to be spending the money on.

I would add what would be easiest and relatively cheapest way to build a tunnel a through DT without completely disrupting service. Logically a cut and cover under 5th with portals along the north side of US Bank Stadium and right after 1st Ave would make a ton of sense but that would completely ruin the service for an extended period of time as it's built

[HuskyGrad]

I would add what would be easiest and relatively cheapest way to build a tunnel a through DT without completely disrupting service. Logically a cut and cover under 5th with portals along the north side of US Bank Stadium and right after 1st Ave would make a ton of sense but that would completely ruin the service for an extended period of time as it's built

I've also heard the idea floated of introducing a couplet by building out a northbound track on 4th.

[mister.shoes]

Stick the tunnel under 6th instead. The north portal would be on 5th between 1st and 2nd, then go diagonally under the block toward 6th and Hennepin. The station itself could be between Hennepin and Nicollet with ample opportunities for entrances at both ends and mid-block.

The Hennepin County tower presumably has a significant foundation complicating a new Government Plaza stop, but maybe the fact that the tower spans 6th means this isn’t actually a problem. For this hypothetical the station is right underneath with entrances at both ends and from the tower basement mid-block. The new MPLS building would have direct access too.

The east portal is the tricky part. Assuming the juvenile detention center can’t be moved elsewhere (if it can, we just go diagonally across that block, dropping underground before Portland), the track would drop down while running parallel to Park before curving under the intersection with 6th.

Moving the rail one block south like this would allow most of the construction to be done without interrupting service. They’d probably have to run single track on the north end for a bit to have room to cut into 5th for the portal, but otherwise it’s a matter of switching over to the new line when done.

***

Oooh, I just thought of an alternative for the south/east end: move the line to the south side of US Bank Stadium. The track would curve at 5th just after the freeway crossing and start diving down and angling south to be in the tunnel by 11th. Then, between 11th and Park is one enormous station with somewhere between two and four platforms situated among four tracks. Normal operations would use one platform at the Park end, but huge events at the stadium could load multiple trains on both the green and blue lines.

[Tiller]

What streets do we have in downtown Minneapolis that would benefit the most from putting in a cut and cover bus tunnel?

I don't think anyone has ever made like a streets.mn post looking at the number of buses per hour or per day on different transit arteries, at least none that I've found. But you'd think a Seattle-style bus tunnel could help with bus congestion and bus jams downtown. And it could get buses out of Nicollet Mall.