Interstate 94

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
thespeedmccool
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby thespeedmccool » July 19th, 2023, 3:24 pm

Just because MnDOT is showing "at-grade" to look like Hiawatha, doesn't mean that's the actual, good-faith best realistic scenario for the boulevard. Crossing distances would be a fraction of what they are now for bike/ped, and the roadway being narrowed would allow potentially hundreds of prime acres to be freed up for development. A good faith representation of at-grade would be far more appealing than the bland, almost stroad-like rendering that MnDOT seems to be peddling.
Would crossing 94 really get easier if it were at-grade, though? Today, you can already cross it every other block, and I highly doubt MNDOT or anyone is imagining that a Twin Cities Boulevard would have at-grade pedestrian crossings or pedestrian bridges every block.

It's worth pointing out that from Mackubin to Fairview, 94 is actually pretty narrow, only one block wide. There's actually not that much developable land freed up by an at-grade boulevard, and even less economically usable land if you're imagining the boulevard running through the middle of the block. It's a substantial amount when you consider the sheer length of the corridor, but I don't know if 100-foot-wide lots along a stroad are that desirable, or the kind of land that will truly transform neighborhoods. Urban freeway removals are probably most worthwhile from a land-development standpoint when they involve removing large interchanges and spaghetti junctions that cut diagonally across downtowns, and probably least worthwhile in exactly this instance.

And, again, there is a 0% chance that an at-grade option would be built like a quiet, pleasant boulevard like us urbanists might envision. It would be an awful, unpleasant eyesore, still cutting straight through the heart of the city. Frankly, I think the renderings MNDOT put together of the at-grade option are a rosy idea of what they could actually build. Realistically, they would probably find reasons to expand it from four to six lanes and then add in turn lanes, slip lanes, and other such driver-centric features until it looks a lot more like Hiawatha than even the current concept does. I'm imagining a dreadful stretch of unmanicured grass medians, with little-to-no public artwork or character (like we might expect of city-built roads) and disappointingly sparse public and active transportation options. This rendering is probably as good as it gets.

I think I'd be more easily sold on a full removal, honestly. Would it be a political nightmare and make getting into St. Paul substantially harder for many? Yes, but at least we'd be getting an honest-to-goodness improvement for at least some stakeholders. I really don't see how the boulevard is a substantial improvement for anyone, and much less one substantial enough to justify the wild political costs of pursuing it further. Even dedicating a lane to BRT on an expanded freeway would have people piping mad. Let's be serious and temper our expectations for what MNDOT is willing and able to do.

Tcmetro
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby Tcmetro » July 19th, 2023, 7:08 pm

With over 100,000 cars on any given segment and thousands of semi-trucks, the boulevard option would probably be more like an NYC arterial than a parkway.

I'm curious to see what the traffic modeling looks like but I'd expect lots of traffic to move to east-west streets like Lake/Marshall, Franklin, University, Como, etc.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby SurlyLHT » July 20th, 2023, 8:32 am

With over 100,000 cars on any given segment and thousands of semi-trucks, the boulevard option would probably be more like an NYC arterial than a parkway.

I'm curious to see what the traffic modeling looks like but I'd expect lots of traffic to move to east-west streets like Lake/Marshall, Franklin, University, Como, etc.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I would much rather the traffic be on 94 where I don't bike than on Como, Lake/Marshall or Franklin where I do bike. Let's keep the freeway and minimize it's impact on the city's fabric. Do a lid and line the bridges with buildings. Could Concordia and St Anthony have a diet?

Silophant
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby Silophant » July 20th, 2023, 8:42 am

Yeah, same. Concordia/St. Anthony are already just two lanes, converting them to two-way roads (and opening up development lots between them and the narrowed freeway) would go pretty far towards calming them.
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MNdible
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby MNdible » July 20th, 2023, 10:17 am

I still think that it's profoundly silly that we're even discussing removing grade separation here. If you can't even get half of the people on this forum to agree that it's a good idea, just imagine how this will play in broader constituencies.

uptownbro
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby uptownbro » July 20th, 2023, 10:48 am

A highway cap at cedar river side and across downtown st paul. I just dont think you can get a full removal of the highway done but we can make massive improvement's to how it currently divides the city

gopherfan
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby gopherfan » July 20th, 2023, 10:54 am

I still think that it's profoundly silly that we're even discussing removing grade separation here. If you can't even get half of the people on this forum to agree that it's a good idea, just imagine how this will play in broader constituencies.
I agree MNdible! I think the best solution will be to add a managed lane to the existing freeway and then have the conversation turn away from the freeway aspect and focus on solutions for lids and adjacent development. A road diet for Concordia/St. Anthony is another good solution, those could become more like the slow boulevards some want. Lid the freeways at the major intersections and crossing will become much better. This can be a win-win project for drivers and pedestrians.

Tom H.
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby Tom H. » July 20th, 2023, 1:04 pm

Vikings first-round draft pick cited by police for driving Lamborghini 140 mph in St. Paul

Just think, if we removed the freeway, all this 140 mph traffic would move onto neighborhood streets instead. /s

MinneapBliss
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby MinneapBliss » July 23rd, 2023, 10:04 am

The more lids along this stretch, the merrier, and any enhancement of bus efficiency within that framework would be great. This approach stores/gains political capital; adds potential for greenspace, public plazas, art installations, small businesses, community connections; and reduces the amount of road salt needed along I-94 as a bonus. Build them in a way that the lids themselves, or features thereof, spell out RONDO (or whatever a given neighborhood wants) in map view and call it good!
"That rug really tied the room together, did it not?" -Walter Sobchak

gopherfan
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby gopherfan » July 24th, 2023, 12:23 pm

Build them in a way that the lids themselves, or features thereof, spell out RONDO (or whatever a given neighborhood wants) in map view and call it good!
Such a fun idea @MinneapBliss I think the idea would work really well!
Image

bubzki2
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby bubzki2 » July 25th, 2023, 10:22 am

That way, the elementary kids at Maxfield Elementary can (continue to) suffer from extreme air pollution while playing on a fun N-shaped bridge!

gopherfan
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby gopherfan » July 25th, 2023, 4:11 pm

That way, the elementary kids at Maxfield Elementary can (continue to) suffer from extreme air pollution while playing on a fun N-shaped bridge!
No. You can cap the entire area and landscape pathways for the letters.

Bob Stinson's Ghost
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby Bob Stinson's Ghost » July 25th, 2023, 5:56 pm

Would this impact semi traffic, especially container freight? I haven't been able to come up with any facts and figures relating to freight traffic on that stretch. How much would this handicap the BNSF intermodal yard?

MinneapBliss
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby MinneapBliss » July 27th, 2023, 6:55 am

That way, the elementary kids at Maxfield Elementary can (continue to) suffer from extreme air pollution while playing on a fun N-shaped bridge!
No. You can cap the entire area and landscape pathways for the letters.
Right -- pathways, trees, boulders, other landscaping or built forms -- more creative people than me could figure out a dozen cool ways to do it. The thought would be to mitigate noise and air pollution, and add greenspace, for people who spend substantial time adjacent to the freeway, and remind people that Rondo is still very much there, despite the devastation to that neighborhood brought by I-94 in the first place.
"That rug really tied the room together, did it not?" -Walter Sobchak

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Tiller
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby Tiller » July 28th, 2023, 8:00 pm

With over 100,000 cars on any given segment and thousands of semi-trucks, the boulevard option would probably be more like an NYC arterial than a parkway.

I'm curious to see what the traffic modeling looks like but I'd expect lots of traffic to move to east-west streets like Lake/Marshall, Franklin, University, Como, etc.
If I remember correctly, a large majority of this is local traffic. That is, traffic that we should be trying to mode-shift over to transit. If we put in a cut-and-cover express rail line when rebuilding this corridor and driving becomes harder because it's not a freeway, that should increase non-driving mode share.

Plus, we've got the expanded transit funding we just won at the legislature, and everything else that we'll be fighting for after that, to also make alternatives to driving better.

We can't keep 94 as a freeway for 2 more generations. We gotta scrap it.

thespeedmccool
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby thespeedmccool » July 29th, 2023, 8:56 am

Regardless of whether 94 could be conceivably done away with (I'm fairly convinced it can't be and would be fine with a land bridge,) there's a much better chance for real highway turnback in North Minneapolis: Olson Memorial Highway

Perfect opportunity here. Unnecessary expressway that parallels an interstate just blocks away and could easily be reintegrated with the neighborhood. Plus, there's substantially less drivers and it's harder to argue there's not a good substitute.

Tear down Olson Memorial Highway (if we can still call it Olson Memorial Avenue.)

daveybabymsp
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby daveybabymsp » July 29th, 2023, 5:59 pm

Does anyone know when 94 between Brooklyn park and downtown Minneapolis would be up for a “rethinking”? I think that could potentially be a more politically feasible removal, since 100 parallels it and you could take 100 to 394 to get downtown if 94 was gone. For the record, I personally support removal between Minneapolis and Saint Paul but I have trouble imagining it happening in the current political climate

EOst
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby EOst » August 3rd, 2023, 1:52 pm

With over 100,000 cars on any given segment and thousands of semi-trucks, the boulevard option would probably be more like an NYC arterial than a parkway.

I'm curious to see what the traffic modeling looks like but I'd expect lots of traffic to move to east-west streets like Lake/Marshall, Franklin, University, Como, etc.
This is something more people need to have frank conversations about. Traffic has rebounded on 94 to about 125k cars per day. Let's be very optimistic and say that a third of that traffic will evaporate or switch to other modes; you're still looking at ~83k cars per day driving through here.

MnDOT moves about 50k cars per day on France Ave, so let's further assume the boulevard would be able to handle that same number (somehow without being as incredibly unpleasant as that part of France Ave is). That still leaves ~33k cars rerouting to other surface routes like Marshall and University. How do you double traffic on those neighborhood streets and not create new bad outcomes?

MNdible
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby MNdible » August 3rd, 2023, 5:29 pm

Not to mention all of the impacts to other traffic that you generate by removing the grade separation. Traffic lights are more frequent and cycles are longer, and the impacts ripple across the area. It really does boggle my mind that people think pushing this amount of traffic (or even a fraction thereof) through neighborhoods is something we should be aspiring to.

Obviously digging the trench caused a lot of generational problems for a lot of people. But it exists now, and it's a core piece of infrastructure for the metro area. Yes, by all means, upgrade all of the crossings and improve transit and limit the negative externalities of it. But to fill it in? Nah.

daveybabymsp
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Re: Interstate 94

Postby daveybabymsp » August 3rd, 2023, 5:40 pm

To everyone talking about the many 10s of thousands of cars a boulevard would push to other streets - what do you think will happen while 94 is closed for construction? Do you expect 100,000 trips to be taken on Marshall and University daily? I find that hard to imagine. It didn’t happen on Nicollet, Lyndale, etc when 35w was closed. If it doesn’t happen during construction, why would it happen after the road reopens?


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