Gold Line BRT - Downtown St. Paul to Woodbury

[Bakken2016]

Metro Transit has now updated the project page to set a March 22, 2025 opening date for the Gold Line. Idk if they're going to be working weekends this summer or what.

The Met Council made a post today on Facebook, it is 41% complete, advancing on time and under budget. It must be a heavy construction season coming up, but I'm glad that this will show that transit projects can be built on time and under budget.

[alexschief]

... but I'm glad that this will show that transit projects can be built on time and under budget.

They can, if it's a road project!

[DanPatchToget]

This brings up the question of when is a budget set concretely and at completion if you go over it you're over budget and if you're below it you're under budget. I forget when, but sometime ago the Gold Line budget went up to account for additional parking, so assuming it's still over the original budget does that mean it's actually over budget? Not that I'd be saying it's a boondoggle, but other people might say that and they'll argue it was supposed to cost $X dollars in [insert year] and now it's more than that cost.

It'd be unfair to say the Green Line Extension is around $1.6 billion over budget because in 2011 it was projected to cost $1.25 billion and now it's $2.86 billion, but maybe fair to say it's over budget by X dollars compared to when it began construction in 2019.

[Bakken2016]

... but I'm glad that this will show that transit projects can be built on time and under budget.

They can, if it's a road project!

Shush, lol

[mattaudio]

I mean there's probably something to that... all the players here have a deep history building roads and highways, so it's a predictable target to build roads and bridges even if they're dedicated for buses in the end.

[Tom H.]

I mean there's probably something to that... all the players here have a deep history building roads and highways, so it's a predictable target to build roads and bridges even if they're dedicated for buses in the end.

Plus no tunnels.

[EOst]

Several tunnels, actually, but they're very short.

[Tom H.]

Welp, I stand corrected. So much for my pithy, oversimplified explanation

[angrysuburbanite]

Two questions:

1. Will nearby local and express routes be restructured similar to the Orange Line?

2. Is the Woodbury express service (and the 323, I guess) going to be relocated to the Woodlane P&R or will it continue to operate out of the theater parking lot?

[thespeedmccool]

Two questions:

1. Will nearby local and express routes be restructured similar to the Orange Line?

2. Is the Woodbury express service (and the 323, I guess) going to be relocated to the Woodlane P&R or will it continue to operate out of the theater parking lot?

1. Pre-pandemic, there was a plan to add 4-5 local bus services to Woodbury with the Gold Line. Little chance that happens now; the county is investigating microtransit now. Otherwise, I'm sure there will be some minor restructuring of local services, but they actually seem to link up pretty well with Gold Line already to my eye.

2. Woodbury express services will operate out of the Woodlane P&R (at least, that's Woodbury's plan.) Like three minor P&Rs in Woodbury have closed since the pandemic, partly anticipating this shift. Woodbury Theatre will no longer be a P&R, but NIMBYs got pissed at the idea of redeveloping the theatre, so in the station area planning it's expected to remain a theatre (with a mixed use suboption.)

I would guess 323 will operate out of the new Woodlane P&R, but I'm not sure. Maybe it will route up to the Woodlane P&R, then follow Guider to Queens or Bielenberg, then follow either of those to Valley Creek where it will extend into Woodbury.

[angrysuburbanite]

Yeah, I just looked at the system map and not much has to be changed. The only thing I really see outside of Woodbury is the Sun Ray Transit Center, which really should be relocated a block south.

I would really like Metro Transit to consider something other than microtransit in Woodbury. Land use aside, the arterial road network would lend itself to a really nice route grid. Running 4 or so new routes at 30-minute frequencies wouldn't be too hard... I think it's at least worth a try.

[thespeedmccool]

Yeah, I just looked at the system map and not much has to be changed. The only thing I really see outside of Woodbury is the Sun Ray Transit Center, which really should be relocated a block south.

I would really like Metro Transit to consider something other than microtransit in Woodbury. Land use aside, the arterial road network would lend itself to a really nice route grid. Running 4 or so new routes at 30-minute frequencies wouldn't be too hard... I think it's at least worth a try.

Sun Ray Transit Center is staying where it is, I think; the Gold Line project includes some minor updates for it. That said, station area planning for Sun Ray proposed tearing down the ol' eyesore and establishing a street grid, so anything's possible in the future.

I think Woodbury should get all-day service as well, but it's something they'd have to agitate or pay for, and I highly doubt that will happen. Woodbury's grown up in a very transit-unsupportive way, and trying to reverse engineer a transit-oriented city out of it seems very hard (unless that commercial upzoning bill passes at the legislature.)

Some ideas:

• Extending the 323 along Valley Creek Road to Eagle Valley Commons would be good.
• A local bus could run from Sun Ray in the bus lanes to Hudson Road and follow it to Manning Avenue (possibly shifting to Tamarack between Spring Hill and Woodbury) to the apartments going in around NE Woodbury right now.
• A third service could run from the Woodlane P&R down Woodlane to Bailey Road, which it would follow to the development node at Bailey and Radio Drive (which Woodbury shamefully refers to as its "Urban Village.")

Other than that, I don't think there's any ripe opportunities in Woodbury. Nothing north-south makes much sense (maybe running north on Century or across the new Bielenberg Bridge to North St. Paul, but that kinda duplicates the 219,) and Woodbury's other east-west arterials are too sparsely developed.

[angrysuburbanite]

Realistically, a 323 extension is likely to be the only additional local service in Woodbury. Another change should be to convert 351 to a "non-stop" variant of the Gold Line, using the BRT buses, or eliminate the express entirely.

Also, if the Gold Line doesn't get a Gold ITDP ranking, I will be angry.

[thespeedmccool]

Washington County is discussing how to spend its transit sales tax dollars this week, and their agenda packet confirms Metro Transit is going to implement a microtransit service to connect Woodbury with its Gold Line stops.

Hooray

[DanPatchToget]

Realistically, a 323 extension is likely to be the only additional local service in Woodbury. Another change should be to convert 351 to a "non-stop" variant of the Gold Line, using the BRT buses, or eliminate the express entirely.

Also, if the Gold Line doesn't get a Gold ITDP ranking, I will be angry.

A few years ago I wrote an article on the ITDP's BRT rankings. We'll see what happens when the Gold Line begins operation, but my educated guess was it would get a silver ranking (a score of 72/100).

When I was writing that article the only BRT system in the U.S. with a gold ranking was Albuquerque Rapid Transit (ART) with a score of 88.5/100. Not sure if that's changed since then.

Here's the article:
https://streets.mn/2021/05/26/bus-rapid ... -it-seems/

[angrysuburbanite]

I just ran through the 2024 edition of the BRT Standard and ended up scoring it 79, but I may have been a bit generous on some parts... Still silver, though. Is it too hyperbolic to say that the Gold Line will end up being one of the best "true" BRT lines in the country?

In any case, I am really happy that Metro Transit is investing in a BRT that is really a Bus Rapid Transit line, and that it is coming in on-time and under-budget (as of this week's newsletter). Selfishly, I look forward to using it as an example of a more recent well-constructed transit project whenever someone complains about how over budget transit projects always are.

I hope that the high-quality infrastructure of the Gold Line is a catalyst for more investment in dedicated space for transit. 2025 looks to be a good year for transit expansion!

Love the article, by the way.

[Korh]

Found this scrolling online
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q-UHd9tFNk

Interesting little takeaways I didn't consider before is one of the reasons LRT is much more expensive is that there's not many construction firms who specialize in building out LRT where for better or worse I'm sure there's serval dozen companies in the state alone who have been fine tunning road construction for decades, as well as mechanics to service each vehicle since auto mechanics can be a dime a dozen compared to ones trained to service a train.

[COLSLAW5]

Interesting little takeaways I didn't consider before is one of the reasons LRT is much more expensive is that there's not many construction firms who specialize in building out LRT where for better or worse I'm sure there's serval dozen companies in the state alone who have been fine tunning road construction for decades, as well as mechanics to service each vehicle since auto mechanics can be a dime a dozen compared to ones trained to service a train.

Not to be to critical but diesel engine mechanics are not a dime a dozen even comparing it to train mechanics. A lot of companies are struggling to hire and retain them.

A lot of the time the train mechanics are diesel engine mechanics that get on the job training to switch over.

[Korh]

Interesting little takeaways I didn't consider before is one of the reasons LRT is much more expensive is that there's not many construction firms who specialize in building out LRT where for better or worse I'm sure there's serval dozen companies in the state alone who have been fine tunning road construction for decades, as well as mechanics to service each vehicle since auto mechanics can be a dime a dozen compared to ones trained to service a train.

Not to be to critical but diesel engine mechanics are not a dime a dozen even comparing it to train mechanics. A lot of companies are struggling to hire and retain them.

A lot of the time the train mechanics are diesel engine mechanics that get on the job training to switch over.

Alright my mistake, I was thinking more of all the additional components outside of engines that regularly need to be checked and maintained, especially with the s70s and s 700s, which I wouldn't be surprised if they have to contract out directly to siemens occasionally.

[angrysuburbanite]

That video did a pretty good job describing the differences between the "types" of BRT, but hung onto the cost thing a bit more than I would have liked.

Also, the people he were interviewing (assuming Metro Transit reps) said some pretty refreshing things, especially the network vs corridor approach and satisfying community needs rather than mode requirements. Glad there are people thinking like that at Metro Transit!