Northstar Commuter Rail

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daveybabymsp
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by daveybabymsp »

wingedmolotov wrote:I'm curious, which are our streetcar suburbs?
Main suburbs that were at least partially developed during the streetcar era: St Louis Park, Hopkins, Robbinsdale, Columbia Heights, Minnetonka, Deephaven, Excelsior. Other parts of Lake Minnetonka were served by ferries.

On the east side, south Saint Paul, west Saint Paul, north Saint Paul, white bear lake, Stillwater.

You could also classify a lot of the outer neighborhoods in Minneapolis as Saint Paul as streetcar suburbs since they were developed during the streetcar era and originally functioned as suburbs
Tom H.
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by Tom H. »

Looking at a few maps, I'd say St Louis Park, Hopkins, Excelsior, White Bear Lake, South St Paul, North St Paul, and Stillwater. And although they are within city limits, most of the outer portions of Minneapolis and St Paul are effectively of a "streetcar suburb" built form, especially South Minneapoils / Richfield, and the west side of St Paul.

EDIT - jinx with the post above mine :)
BikesOnFilm
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by BikesOnFilm »

thespeedmccool wrote: April 16th, 2025, 3:23 pm Minneapolis is probably destined to remain a "quiet midsized metro" forever.
Is Albuquerque destined to be a major global metropolis because of the Rail Runner? The ridership on the CapMetro Rail in Austin is pretty dismal, if they cancelled that train would Austin stop growing like a weed?

I don't think commuter rail systems are as intrinsically tied to metro size or importance as much as this forum might want to believe.
wingedmolotov
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by wingedmolotov »

Thanks Tom and daveybaby.
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by mattaudio »

angrysuburbanite wrote: April 16th, 2025, 7:19 pm I’d describe our LRT system as being more in line with the interurban railways that TCRT once operated.
To this end, I long-ago suggested a future Green Line extension (likely lower service pattern) to Shakopee and Chaska. It could continue west on the 212/5 corridor to the River Bluffs LRT Trail corridor, then head southwest to Great Plains Blvd/Hwy 101. Then it could split into single track segments splitting service to Downtowns Chaska and Shakopee. Or, maybe a better option would be to cross the Hwy 101 bridge to a stop in Downtown Shakopee, have a P&R stop near Old 169/Bypass 169 interchange for commuters, then hop the old Hastings & Dakota RR ROW back across the river to Downtown Chaska.

Either of these options would connect two more metro counties and their county seats to our LRT-based regional rail network.

It would be great to get Hastings and/or Anoka connected, and those would likely be contenders for FRA-regulated regional rail instead of LRT (if not just add as Borealis stops).

Then, if Stillwater could get connected somehow, you'd have regional rail connections to all 7 county seats, of which all the suburban ones have historical urban cores. I guess this is quite OT.
StandishGuy
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by StandishGuy »

Uggh! I love rail transit, but our region is just too sprawling, car-oriented and unwalkable to make regional rail worthwhile. the new Gold Line, which obviously isn't rail, cost $500+ million and has awful land uses along most of the route. The Green Line Extension is dominated by sprawl, park & ride lots and parkland along the route. The Blue Line Extension, outside of Minneapolis, will run down the middle of a multi-lane highway. None of these projects seem to understand we need walkable, connected places with destinations to make transit work. Plus, we now live in a new reality of significant work from home making connections to downtowns less effective. A recent trip I took to Oslo, Norway and Copenhagen, Denmark confirmed that MSP is too dominated by highways and continuing to sprawl to make a rail system work well.
DanPatchToget
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by DanPatchToget »

https://streets.mn/2025/04/24/long-live-the-northstar/

Thoughts on this?

To me, it’s easy to propose any kind of changes, and admittedly I’m writing my own article on how Northstar could change to better serve Minnesota, but it’s difficult to imagine that MnDOT, the Met Council, etc. will be open to any ideas when for the last 15 years they’ve done almost nothing to improve Northstar beyond it’s pre-pandemic schedule and service as far north as Big Lake.

This isn’t to say that those of us who want to save Northstar should sit around silently and let it be abandoned, but I’m also not getting my hopes up that there will be a change of mood and Northstar’s trains will stay in Minnesota, whether it be continuing with the status quo, increasing service, or trying a different kind of service.
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by BikesOnFilm »

There's a key part of this article that I think is important.
One could just write the above off as a gaffe, but Mike Hicks — a fellow transit blogger and former Streets.mn contributor — recently dug into all the other ways the most recent study is flawed. It’s based on bad rail traffic estimates where they seemingly take BNSF at their word. The Gulf Breeze Saga proved this is always a bad idea.
The author goes on to assert (perhaps out of frustration) that only an agency that has it out for Northstar would write a case for killing it in an expansion study. I think it has far more to do with MNDOT only having like 3 people in their rail office and those 3 people probably can't do a major rail traffic study without some form of grant to hire a consultancy company to carry it out, or by putting aside other projects.

That's probably also a big reason why MNDOT has rolled forward with the road projects that helped to kill Northstar - if there's a dozen people working on a Highway 10 project and they're all car brained, why would they care about what the 2-3 people in the rail office are saying about their train project?

I don't think there's someone sitting in a MNDOT office, chuckling ruefully at the idea of killing Northstar. I think it's far more likely that it's dying due to neglect, partially from potential riders, but certainly from a department that doesn't have the capacity to develop and research creative ways to keep it on life support when keeping NLX moving and working with Amtrak and WSDOT on how to build on the runaway success of Borealis are much more important priorities.

As with many things, if you really want things to change, you need to elect an executive who will appoint an MNDOT chair who will dedicate more resources to the state rail office. As we enter a world where it's no longer prudent to plan projects around a partnership with the federal government, if we value these things, we need to build the teams, institutional knowledge, and the capacity to build and support these things on our own.
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Nick
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by Nick »

DanPatchToget wrote: April 24th, 2025, 9:13 am https://streets.mn/2025/04/24/long-live-the-northstar/

Thoughts on this?
Do people call it "the" Northstar?
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by Tcmetro »

I guess you had to when it only ran once a day.
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by mattaudio »

Nick wrote: April 24th, 2025, 12:41 pm Do people call it "the" Northstar?
Blue Line was called THE Hiawatha Line for its first decade of its existence... Image
Bakken2016
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by Bakken2016 »

Metro Transit is going to lease Northstar vehicles to Amtrak and DART.

https://metrocouncil.org/Council-Meetin ... pwrpt.aspx
DanPatchToget
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by DanPatchToget »

Not sure how I feel about that. It makes sense for both events (the World Cup and Amtrak's fleet shortage), but I fear they'll end up buying the equipment and then the rest of the Northstar equipment will get sold off.
mattaudio
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by mattaudio »

When Northstar was once just a dream, 25 years ago: https://www.pbs.org/video/commuter-rail-13905/
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by daveybabymsp »

mattaudio wrote:When Northstar was once just a dream, 25 years ago: https://www.pbs.org/video/commuter-rail-13905/
Description: Minnesota is scheduled to run trains from St. Cloud to the Twin Cities in 2004
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by COLSLAW5 »

sounds like metro transit will remove all the infrastructure in the BNSF right of way if the train is stopped.

Also sounds like the service will be stopped
DanPatchToget
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by DanPatchToget »

COLSLAW5 wrote: April 29th, 2025, 8:33 am sounds like metro transit will remove all the infrastructure in the BNSF right of way if the train is stopped.

Also sounds like the service will be stopped
Got a source for the infrastructure removal?

I can see the skyways being removed, and most of the stuff on the platforms like the shelters. The platforms themselves however seems like more of a hassle to remove them than just leaving them.
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by mattaudio »

What's the rush to remove these stations?
I'm not a Northstar defender at this point, but I could imagine Amtrak stopping at 1 or 2 of these if they extend Borealis northwest (Anoka?)
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by Mdcastle »

What about having the Empire Builder stop too considering how Union Depot is nowhere close to to centrally located and is so hard to drive to and park at?
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Re: Northstar Commuter Rail

Post by twincitizen »

In the TCMC study that resulted in the Borealis service, IIRC they studied using the Fridley Station (as well as St. Cloud) as a potential terminal if the route extended west of SPUD. Fridley makes a lot of sense based on easy highway access for the entire north & northwest metro area and a large population living within a 5 or 10 mile radius, easily more than any other Northstar station could claim. Maybe Anoka Station makes more sense in terms of spacing between St. Cloud and SPUD, but I would be tempted to choose Fridley for the reasons mentioned. If we were ranking Northstar stops that should be saved rather than demolished, Anoka would be high on my list regardless. I would understand mothballing & securing unmonitored infrastructure for public safety reasons (pedestrian underpasses, skyway bridges) but tearing things down seems unnecessary unless there's a demonstrable risk to freight rail service posed by that stuff remaining in place.
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