Making Transit More Feasible/Less Intimidating for New Riders

[HKM]

How far would $750K from the city go toward getting a few more late night light rail runs on summer Fri/Sat evenings to encourage people to come out downtown? A "Metro Transit Live" if you will.

[MNdible]

True, but 1/3 of those had left before the end of the game, and only 1/2 of those remaining stuck around for the concert. And of those remaining, I'd wager quite a few lived within easy walking distance of the ballpark.

Obviously, it would be great if Metro Transit were able to reinstate good frequencies on all of their downtown MPLS services until after bar close, but this particular event just really doesn't move the needle very much.

[BigIdeasGuy]

I'm not sure that I'd consider a free Flo-Rida concert a major event...

There were 35k+ people at that game, while I generally agree about Flo Rida, I think there would be a wide consensus that any event that brings in that number of people is a major event.

As reference Target Center holds just shy of 19k for basketball and concerts can go just over 20k and according to the Downtown Council 58,409 is DT population

[Silophant]

How far would $750K from the city go toward getting a few more late night light rail runs on summer Fri/Sat evenings to encourage people to come out downtown? A "Metro Transit Live" if you will.

My understanding is that it's a lack of operators, not a lack of money.

[DanPatchToget]

Anecdotally, it seems like everyday I get an email from dispatch saying there's shifts that need to be filled and desperately trying to get operators to do overtime or come in on their day off. Maybe when I have a set schedule throughout the week I'll consider it, but right now I'm on what's called the Extra Board for the Blue Line on AM shifts and each day my shift is different and so far has ranged from starting at 3 AM (which I will be doing tonight/tomorrow) to 8 AM.

[MNdible]

There were 35k+ people at that game, while I generally agree about Flo Rida, I think there would be a wide consensus that any event that brings in that number of people is a major event.

Not to belabor this (too late), but a regular Twins game (without a postgame Flo Rida concert) is going to be over by 9:30pm, so late night service isn't really an issue.

[twincitizen]

Even for regular games without post-game concerts/fireworks, for Target Field employees who have to work beyond the end of the game, it could be tough making that last train at 11:20pm.

I also got burned by the lack of rail service after the Twins / Flo Rida concert. Had I known the last train runs were at 11:20, we'd have simply left the concert early...no one cares about Flo Rida enough to miss the last train home. I didn't even think to check NexTrip until after the concert was over, assuming service ran at least that late. Luckily this wasn't my first time being in this scenario, so I quickly snagged a Route 22 out of the A Ramp, which still does a couple trips after rail service ends. The 22 is a workable Blue Line substitute for almost anyone within Mpls city limits, but that doesn't help anyone trying to get to Fort Snelling or Bloomington park & rides. I don't know if there's anything running to St. Paul that late...the 3 maybe?

Even with transit's well-documented labor shortages the past few years, it felt like a safe assumption that LRT service would be provided after the concert. I see it as a failure of leadership to not provide a single outbound trip on each line after an event that has been known about for months, especially considering how many Twins fans use LRT to get there. There were hundreds of confused fans heading towards the LRT platforms and later on foot in the Warehouse District, scrambling to figure out how the hell they were going to get home. I had to help some drunk (and scared, I think) young people who couldn't figure out where to catch their Uber, as they clearly had no idea how to navigate away from the stadium by any means other than light rail. I feel bad for the Target Field employees that were forced into taking an unplanned expensive Uber/Lyft trip that night.

P.S. at some point should I move this side conversation to the Blue or Green Line or Target Field thread, so we can resume the regular conversation here?

[Bakken2016]

Even for regular games without post-game concerts/fireworks, for Target Field employees who have to work beyond the end of the game, it could be tough making that last train at 11:20pm.

I also got burned by the lack of rail service after the Twins / Flo Rida concert. Had I known the last train runs were at 11:20, we'd have simply left the concert early...no one cares about Flo Rida enough to miss the last train home. I didn't even think to check NexTrip until after the concert was over, assuming service ran at least that late. Luckily this wasn't my first time being in this scenario, so I quickly snagged a Route 22 out of the A Ramp, which still does a couple trips after rail service ends. The 22 is a workable Blue Line substitute for almost anyone within Mpls city limits, but that doesn't help anyone trying to get to Fort Snelling or Bloomington park & rides. I don't know if there's anything running to St. Paul that late...the 3 maybe?

Even with transit's well-documented labor shortages the past few years, it felt like a safe assumption that LRT service would be provided after the concert. I see it as a failure of leadership to not provide a single outbound trip on each line after an event that has been known about for months, especially considering how many Twins fans use LRT to get there. There were hundreds of confused fans heading towards the LRT platforms and later on foot in the Warehouse District, scrambling to figure out how the hell they were going to get home. I had to help some drunk (and scared, I think) young people who couldn't figure out where to catch their Uber, as they clearly had no idea how to navigate away from the stadium by any means other than light rail. I feel bad for the Target Field employees that were forced into taking an unplanned expensive Uber/Lyft trip that night.

P.S. at some point should I move this side conversation to the Blue or Green Line or Target Field thread, so we can resume the regular conversation here?

There were extra trains after the Twins / Flo Rida concert, they just didn't leave until 12am.

[angrysuburbanite]

To get this (slightly) back on topic: how could nighttime services be improved? There are a number of larger agencies that run an “owl” network that consists of modified or completely different routes to hit the nodes with the most night traffic. Would that be worth considering or would that be too confusing? I suppose I am not really familiar with how Metro Transit does late-night service presently. There are a couple 24 hr routes right?

[Tcmetro]

Pre-pandemic there was 24 hour service on the 5/19 and the Green Line. I believe Metro Transit also added 24 hour service to the 10 and the 18 a few years before the pandemic.

They should have a Green and Blue Line overnight bus service and perhaps on the lettered lines and a few other key routes like the 18, 54, 64, etc.

[angrysuburbanite]

I think it's worth considering restoring more commuter service... freeway congestion has gotten really bad recently and it would be the perfect time for Metro Transit to capitalize on that. Too many of the routes that should probably be running all day as local routes (looking at you 667 and 766) run like one or two roundtrips a day and, other than a handful of the "real" express routes (like the 250 or 355), the schedules are too lean that it is not practical to even use them in the first place.

(yeah, I just broke my rule for this thread: increase frequency... oh well)

[J. Mc]

Pre-pandemic there was 24 hour service on the 5/19 and the Green Line. I believe Metro Transit also added 24 hour service to the 10 and the 18 a few years before the pandemic.

They should have a Green and Blue Line overnight bus service and perhaps on the lettered lines and a few other key routes like the 18, 54, 64, etc.

The 54 was *almost* 24 hour pre-pandemic with EB trips departing MOA about 12:45a and 1:15a and final WB trips around those times as well IIRC. So basically a 1-2 hour gap in the schedule between those late night trips and the first early AM ones.

It would be interesting to see what a dedicated nightbus network could look like for Metro Transit.

---

This is perhaps a tad OT, However, I think Metro Transit should consider adding a 3rd wheelchair/mobility device securement spot on their 60' buses, and perhaps 40' buses, for future purchases. As our population ages we'll likely need more capacity for mobility impaired riders. As an example 3 wheelchair spots have been standard on SunTran 40' buses for a while.
SunTran 3000 Interior by J. Mc., on Flickr

SunTran 4013 Interior by J. Mc., on Flickr

That said I do appreciate how Metro Transit has been moving towards having some individual flip-up seats on their newest bus orders. It's a good way accommodate some of the walkers, shopping baskets, strollers, etc.

[angrysuburbanite]

I wasn't quite sure where to post this so I thought I'd revive this thread given what was being discussed earlier. Interesting to see how many of the suggestions here have been or are being implemented!

Anyways, as much as I love Network Now, one of its biggest blind spots (IMO) is late night service. It will result in some better service at night, but it doesn't look like there are any plans for 24/7 service at all. Lately, I've been trying to create some sort of nighttime bus network to fill that gap without being super costly. One big limitation I've discovered is that I don't really know what people are doing or where people are going at night, so I might be completely missing and/or over-serving specific places with this system. I also realize that this might be needlessly convoluted and a bit Minneapolis-centric!

I haven't really created a nice map for this, but some of the corridors I've been considering are as follows... let me know what you think or if there are any corridors that should be added!

1 - Combined routes 10 and 18 from 46th Street (southern terminus) to 40th Avenue (northern terminus). This has existed as an owl before.
2 - Extending route 5's hourly daytime service to 24/7 service. I'd do this instead of expanding D Line's hours of service because (a) the D Line is already supposed to run very close to 24 hours a day after Network Now and (b) I want to avoid truncating BRT lines at night.
3 - the entire B Line would run 24/7.
4 - Both the Blue and Green Lines would run in their current bustitution form after regular train service ends. After the extensions, I think the Blue Line bus would terminate in Robbinsdale and the Green Line bus wouldn't even try to serve the SWLRT corridor.
5 - Route 3E, currently a peak only variant which runs from North Loop to MN 280 as a supplement to regular service, would resume service after regular route 3 stops running.
6 - the entire route 54, plus a special night-only extension which uses the Gold Line busway to the Sun Ray transit center for basic East Side access.
7 - A special night only-route which runs roughly along the E Line corridor from Dinkytown to Uptown Transit Station, but continues west along the current late night 17X branch along Minnetonka Blvd, terminating at Blake Road Station. That way the SWLRT corridor isn't completely unserved at night. I don't feel like the E Line south of Uptown has enough demand to run much later into the night than it already does.
8 - Combination of routes 62 and 68 which run from Wentworth Avenue (southern terminus) to Maryland Avenue (northern terminus). Basically just the G Line but even shorter.
9 - I also came up with this crazy idea to combine route 2 and the A Line together that is really stupid but would save on operator hours. It run the length of Franklin in Minneapolis, but hop on I-94 to Snelling, where it would turn south and mirror the A Line to 46th street station.

[Wezle]

Any bit of late night transit service, especially serving downtown would be appreciated. The fact that the last light rail train out of downtown is before 11:30 is ever disappointing as you have to sprint out of a concert or event to catch the last train or you're plain out of luck.

[UrbanMPLS]

Yeah, the LRT lines really should run at least every 20 minutes until 1 am.

[fehler]

People will try it if its free. Have more free days system-wide (sometimes for events, or just Free First Tuesdays) to get people into trying it once.

[MNdible]

Any bit of late night transit service, especially serving downtown would be appreciated. The fact that the last light rail train out of downtown is before 11:30 is ever disappointing as you have to sprint out of a concert or event to catch the last train or you're plain out of luck.

Does anybody know -- I've heard that the reduced LRT hours are a function of staffing availability, not of funding or will to provide the service?

[NickP]

I have heard the same.

[HuskyGrad]

I have heard the same.

And likely maintenance has enjoyed the extended window without service.