Hennepin & Lyndale Bottleneck Project

[MNdible]

You really think that people would rather climb up and down a bunch of stairs (not to mention the required associated ramps) than using the cross walk?

No thanks. There are certainly pedestrian improvements that should be made here, but a pedestrian overpass is not the answer.

[bubzki2]

Nevertheless, it's inconvenient, either in reality or in perception, to get from Uptown to Downtown as a pedestrian or a cyclist. It could be worse but this corridor could be much, much better.

[ECtransplant]

And by transit. Uptown and downtown are very disconnected generally

[UptownSport]

You really think that people would rather climb up and down a bunch of stairs (not to mention the required associated ramps) than using the cross walk?

Kinda a 5 million $ waste, eh;


There's a bike boulevard, a bike/ped bridge over Lyndale serving that boulevard, a ped / bike path along lyndale, myriad trails thru Loring Park, bicycles can and do use the west side path, light at Groveland is excellent, bikes can also use the road, there's also a bike ped-bridge from sculpture garden to Loring park.

Both 6 and 4 buses have bike racks and run frequently, in addition there's the 12.

I frequently walk downtown thru the 'triangle', I do so because it's easy and enjoyable.

What, exactly needs to be done, here?

[MSPtoMKE]

Easy and enjoyable to walk through? I would have to disagree. Here are a few of my gripes:

I live a few blocks from here, and almost never use either pedestrian bridge, you have to backtrack in order to do so.
8 to 9 lanes of fast moving traffic is not pleasant to cross.
Only a crosswalk on one side of the Groveland intersection, and you are standing IN the bike path when you wait to cross on the east side, and the sidewalk is shared with the bike lane south of there.
Bicycle facilities sort of peter out north of Oak Grove. The new green crosswalks don't even last through the winter without fading.
It is a challenge to cross both segments of the road at Oak Grove in one cycle without power walking.
Beg buttons to cross mean you will be waiting to cross the street no matter what, and left turns make it difficult to know when the walk signal would have started if the button would have been pressed earlier.
The southbound 4 bus stop at Groveland is a disgrace.

I guess if you are just walking through the area without crossing the bottleneck, it isn't quite as bad.

[seanrichardryan]

...The new green crosswalks don't even last through the winter without fading.

That is an issue I'd like to take up with the city. It seems none of Minneapolis' pavement markings last the winter, and it usually takes until mid July to get everything re-striped. The crosswalks on Highway 7 in SLP last through the winter, why not ours??

*edited for poor grammar*

[UptownSport]

Groveland crossing is what I use, You do have to press the walk button or else you end up running.
The light is quick; I also use it to drive downtown.

Again,though, this carries immense amount of people, that intersection has more than proportional changes for the light ped / auto traffic.

Bike path next to La Belle Vie and the church is too wide for peds. It is a 'bottleneck' as we say so bike lanes should be reduced for this brief section.

After Oak Grove theres thousands of square feet of bike paths shortcutting to DT thru Loring Park. Bicycles can also use the street.

If you're unwilling to use bridges built for the very purpose, then you're suggesting what, exactly?

[Wedgeguy]

Nevertheless, it's inconvenient, either in reality or in perception, to get from Uptown to Downtown as a pedestrian or a cyclist. It could be worse but this corridor could be much, much better.

As one who lives in the neighborhood and does a lot of walking from the Uptown area to Downtown. I'll have you know that there already is a overpass that can be used if you are going south Uptown from the east side of Lyndale to Hennepin Ave from By. IT connects Bryant and Lyndale by the 94 interchange at the east end of the tunnel. I take that way a lot either on foot or by bike. Hennepin South is barely a block from Bryant and Franklin where the Overpass connects to the Bryant bike trail. From there you walk less than a block to Hennepin or you can walk down Bryant which is very pedestrian friendly on you way to Uptown. Like the roads in this city, you just have to look around for other possible routes and be willing to go a block or two out of your way.

[twincitizen]

What I don't get is why the both of you seem to be so in favor of the status quo. "It's been like this for a long time and there are 2 pedestrian bridges so we should make no improvements ever" is what I'm hearing.

What, exactly needs to be done, here?

Better crosswalks with proper markings & ADA ramps, pedestrian refuge islands at the 100' crossings, maybe a few bumpouts. Separation of the bike and ped trails between the flyovers and Loring Park. Faster transit that isn't stuck in congestion. These buses are packed full, most of the day. I'd say that is a legitimate excuse for just a smidgen of priority over single occupant vehicles. Some greening and beautification of the MNDOT no man's land under and between the flyovers/flyunders.

Is the area functional in its current state? Absolutely. Is it attractive or enjoyable to pass through for users of ANY mode? Definitely not even close.

[UptownSport]

Going thru there today, prepared to give a thoughtful response, but seems:

I'd say that is a legitimate excuse for just a smidgen of priority over single occupant vehicles.

It comes out! Deconstruct automobiles! Knew it!

[twincitizen]

I believe I framed it as giving preference to a bus full of 20-40 people, but whatever, you're only interested being an ass.

[UptownSport]

buses negotiate the area as well (or poorly) as auto's- I'm not sure what you could do differently; taking a lane would give preference to 20-40 people, but inconvenience thousands in autos.

I worry bus cut outs would be hazardous when the bus tried to re-enter traffic, perhaps that's why they're not there.

[bubzki2]

This is an unproductive thread. I think for being such a high traffic area this Triangle could use attention, but apparently others love it the way it is. Next topic...

[UptownSport]

And look, suggest changes that help all in the bottle neck-
Like it or not, people have to drive into the city, or get on freeway.
Others might not have to, but to each their own ...

I don't see how Bryant could be extended over the triangle, regardless of cost-
You can't tunnel, as there's already a tunnel.

You could condemn some of La belle vie and Walker property to widen road / sidewalk / bike lane.

I really don't even know where an elevated train / tram / monorail would go, flyovers are just so high- or you could go way up and charge concession prices for seeing the sights.

But sure, crosswalk maintenance, etc- Why not? It should be matter of course maintenance.

[eluko]

If we leveled out the "no mans land" and replaced them with roundabouts it could definitely give it a more urban friendly environment. The traffic south of Groveland isn't really all that bad once the roads become 2 lane one ways which is perfect for roundabouts.
If we swap the elevations of the flyover ramps to 94 and feed the street traffic into the circles it could open up quite a bit more land for possible development as well.

Granted the 9 million wont cover this but it sure doesn't hurt to look into future ideas.
Any thoughts?

[min-chi-cbus]

Pretty cool....that's my thought! Did you come up with that idea on your own? It's very creative!

[eluko]

Pretty cool....that's my thought! Did you come up with that idea on your own? It's very creative!

Thanks. After seeing footage of the 4 lane roundabouts being built in Wisconsin and Nebraska, I thought it could work pretty well right here. Plus its a trendy design which the locals might appreciate vs. other areas.

[fehler]

I don't see how this is an improvement. Groveland is no easier to cross. Northbound Hennepin would now zipper-merge with southbound Lyndale, in about 40 feet of shared roadway? 94 to south Lyndale zippers with north Lyndale for about 20 feet? It's a very pretty picture, but I wouldn't want to drive here. Much rather relieve the stress on this junction, by turning LaSalle into a 2-ywa streets with entrance/exit ramps onto 94.

[eluko]

I don't see how this is an improvement. Groveland is no easier to cross. Northbound Hennepin would now zipper-merge with southbound Lyndale, in about 40 feet of shared roadway? 94 to south Lyndale zippers with north Lyndale for about 20 feet? It's a very pretty picture, but I wouldn't want to drive here. Much rather relieve the stress on this junction, by turning LaSalle into a 2-ywa streets with entrance/exit ramps onto 94.

I thought this would be common knowledge by now but there's no zipper merging in a roundabout. You yield to the traffic in the circle.
As for Groveland thats not what the map is centered on. Thats more to do with spacing and poorly timed stoplights.

How a roundabout works:

[mattaudio]

Based on the photoshopped map above, I think there would be some sort of signalized control of flow into these roundabout points, sort of like Dupont Circle in DC.