Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

[FISHMANPET]

Anoka would approach regional rail levels of service. Could you have most trains terminate at the normal place, and then every 30 minutes or hour run a train to Anoka? Don't even bother to electrify it, build it to LRT standards but without catenary and just run a DMU up and down the line. You could probably get along with just 2 vehicles. Since it wouldn't interact with the freight network at all you could pretty easily get the FRA waiver that would allow a DMU.

[mattaudio]

I always thought the problem with Bottineau was that it wasn't traveling through enough corn fields on its route.

[twincitizen]

How many shots of someone hitting a golf ball were in that video?

There is something horribly wrong with LRT planning in Hennepin County.

[Mdcastle]

Because so many people from Anoka are riding Northstar we need another train up there?

[mulad]

Frequency...

It doesn't get mentioned much, but buses do run to/from Anoka fairly late at night.

Anyway, I still can't help but think that Bottineau should be built more in the vein of a commuter rail line. It should still have dedicated tracks close to Target Field, since the freight line there is shared by almost everybody (2 BNSF lines, Union Pacific, Twin Cities & Western and their Minnesota Prairie Line subsidiary -- maybe even some Canadian Pacific once in a while), but they all branch off by the time you get to Plymouth Avenue.

Tracks exist all the way up to Monticello, and between Monticello and Rogers, the tracks immediately parallel I-94. I have visions of I-94 becoming a parking lot in that area once MN-610 gets completed. The line is very under-utilized on the northern end -- it's only used about once a year to bring stuff to/from the nuclear plant.

[Tcmetro]

So I was wondering what was up with Bottineau LRT, and did a little research on their website.

It looks like the most optimistic timeline is for an opening in late 2019; however, I feel that 2021 or 2022 is a much more realistic completion date. Apparently the project hasn't been formally submitted to the FTA to enter the Project Development phase. Even though a lot of the work that occurs in that part of project is being worked on right now, they still have to go through the application process. Perhaps they are waiting for the Southwest LRT to begin final engineering or construction beforehand. Also, it seems that the DEIS should be wrapping up at the end of the year, and the public comment period will begin early next year.

Well this is perhaps the wrong place to discuss other lines, it seems that the timelines of other projects could get pushed back. Gateway and Red Rock (which seems like it has the potential to be shelved, IMO) would likely be after Bottineau (so perhaps 2025 or so.) Then there still is the Midtown and Rush Line corridors, which seem to me to be 2025-2030 projects, as well as all of the Highway BRT projects (Red Line Phase 2, Orange Line Phases 1 and 2, and whatever makes it out of the Highway Corridor Transitway Study.) Considering that the CTIB is now paying 30% or so of its funds on operations (last time I checked), there is definitely going to be a huge crunch in the funding available for more lines. I would imagine that by the time the 4-line LRT, 2-line BRT, Gateway, and Northstar are all operational, a majority of CTIB funds will be going to the operations of the transitway system.

http://bottransit.org/faqs.htm

WHAT IS THE PROJECT SCHEDULE?

The timeline for development of the Bottineau Transitway is dependent on a number of factors, including receipt federal funds for construction from the Federal Transit Administration (FTA). Competing with other projects throughout the nation for federal funds, the project falls under the latest surface transportation authorization, Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century (MAP-21). Implementation of MAP-21 is likely to have implications on the Bottineau Transitway’s project development process, but it is currently uncertain what the implications will be as guidance for the new authorization is still being developed. An explanation of the phases within MAP-21 can be found here.

The Bottineau Transitway project has not yet applied for entry into the Project Development phase under MAP-21. Once started, the Project Development phase may take up to 2 years, after which Engineering may take 1-2 years, and Construction an additional 3-4 years to complete. The line could be open for service as soon as late 2019, however this is an optimistic schedule.

[Tom H.]

I think this was always the idea of what the CTIB would be - in the near term, it could bond and put its revenues toward accelerated transitway development, and once this is done, it would transition its revenues into debt service and operations subsidies. However, I think the success of the CTIB has shown that it would be appropriate to bump its sales tax up to 0.75% or 1%, since there is clearly still a public demand for more transit lines. As usual, politics will dictate how this plays out.

[twincitizen]

We're getting a little off-topic, but I can't resist...

If Midtown costs less than $250MM it's "Small Starts" and would have a much less rigorous/lengthy planning process. It needs a political backer for sure, and everyone is preoccupied with SWLRT and Nicollet streetcar right now. I'm really glad Metro Transit got to plan that one, rather than the city or county (assuming they do recommend rail in the Greenway). Midtown corridor is going to do more for actual mobility in this city than any of the proposed streetcar lines will.

Gateway seems to be doing really well and is moving along quite quickly. I don't think any issues with SW or Bottineau are going to delay Gateway. East metro leaders are determined to get another line and Gateway seems to have more legs at this point than any other project. Washington County isn't going to sit around paying into CTIB for another decade and not get anything. Gateway is pretty much it for them and they know it. Red Rock is going to be limited to expanded/enhanced express bus service for a long, long time. There is not even demand for all-day BRT in that area and won't be for the considerable future. Washington County is "all in" on Gateway and they're going to get it.

[stp1980]

You are getting at the central question with all of our transit projects. How do we effectively connect a relatively low density geographically large metro area without going broke and doing it in a fair way.

[LRV Op Dude]

Found this on the Bottineau Transitway website. It is flyover simulation video of the Bottineau Transitway.

[twincitizen]

Is that Vizualizer's map that we helped craft on UrbanMSP??

Sure looks like it!!

[mattaudio]

Awesome. Kyril should be proud!

[talindsay]

Assuming they asked permission, and he granted it, that's great. It's instructive to see the route on an earth map; at the end I was thinking, "why are they ending in a literal field" until it spun to show Target's BP campus is *right there*. Still, population is getting pretty thin by the end of the map. I wonder how many Target employees will actually commute with this; it will be good for getting between the DT and BP locations, but given that midday you could drive it in less time than the train takes and parking is free in BP, I'm a little concerned how much of a trip generator it will be. I suppose North Hennepin Comm Coll will be a bigger trip generator and it's just a stop south.

[woofner]

It seems that the Target North campus will max out at only 7,000 employees, so we better hope there is a healthy rate of LRT commuting there. I guess we can take comfort in the fact that any jobs remaining in the Brookdale area will relocate around there before long (i.e. TOD).

[the kid]

Here's a crazy idea; how bout we build these lines where the people are? i couldn't help but cringe watching the video noting the train rambles through forests, along fields, across wide open expanses. It's like commuter rail only slower. There's got to be a way to get this built through some population centers. I say save the money until we have the political will to do this right.

[mamundsen]

Watching the video with the earth map, I found myself thinking that there should be more stations where it runs through residential areas. Seemed like about half of the stops are in odd locations to me.

[Tcmetro]

http://www.mnrides.org/sites/default/fi ... ions_1.pdf

The Nov. 2013 CTIB presentation has some information about the Bottineau LRT. Costs are $1 billion and ridership estimates are 27,000 per day. If all goes according to schedule, the line should enter preliminary engineering soon, and should be open in about 8 years or so.

[talindsay]

Wow, those numbers are both better than I would have expected. If it can deliver on both it seems a pretty much no-brainer approval by the feds and a successful addition for our system. Also, maybe it should have been placed ahead of Southwest in the queue - way less money for only a slightly lower ridership.

[mulad]

I've also been thinking that Bottineau shouldn't be dependent upon Southwest moving forward -- after all, it had been planned to be built already as BRT, before Hiawatha had such a strong opening.

[MNdible]

If I'm not mistaken, both SW and Bottineau have had their ridership estimates bumped up significantly based on revisions to the modeling assumptions.