Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[FISHMANPET]

Are we allowed to question the model used to reach the conclusion that 3A was a better choice? If the model is flawed then of course the results will be flawed. It doesn't indicate malice or unethical behavior on anyone's part, it's just a garbage in-garbage out kind of situation.

[thatchio]

We absolutely have every right to question the assumptions used by professional planners and engineers. It is our tax dollars at work and these investments are supposed to serve the public. Asking questions and raising objections when the answers are not provided or not answered fully should spark protest. And at some point, public confidence is eroded in the process. SWLRT is absolutely an example of where many people were shocked by the data and asked the question on ridership but the only answer was that the FTA approved regional model determined the ridership. But my TAC sources said that the assumption was that in the city, people would not walk further for a train that got them there quicker if a bus was closer and took longer. That was the justification for why only 1,100 people would board at Uptown Transit Station.

I would also like to reiterate that before 3C on Nicollet, there was the on-grade route on Lyndale that would have run behind the Basillica to get back to 5th Street. At Grace Church on 28th, almost everyone in the room told them that was a non-viable option and they ought to consider a real urban alignment.

[UptownSport]

There's a fairly obvious theme to all his posts; in this particular situation the theme dictates: if it supports SW, you can't question it.

[David Greene]

Are we allowed to question the model used to reach the conclusion that 3A was a better choice? If the model is flawed then of course the results will be flawed. It doesn't indicate malice or unethical behavior on anyone's part, it's just a garbage in-garbage out kind of situation.

Sure, it's fine to question the model. But given that the Met Council went back and redesigned the model under close FTA scrutiny so that it would accurately predict current Hiawatha ridership, I think it's a high bar to demonstrate it's completely wrong.

[David Greene]

We absolutely have every right to question the assumptions used by professional planners and engineers. It is our tax dollars at work and these investments are supposed to serve the public. Asking questions and raising objections when the answers are not provided or not answered fully should spark protest. And at some point, public confidence is eroded in the process. SWLRT is absolutely an example of where many people were shocked by the data and asked the question on ridership but the only answer was that the FTA approved regional model determined the ridership.

Thatcher, I think this is really rewriting history. I asked the same questions you did and I got answers that I felt were satisfactory. I was told straight up that the assumption was that people close to a bus would take a bus. There was no hiding of information here. As an Uptown resident and frequent transit user, I found the answers compelling. You and others did not. It's fine to disagree but please don't say the answers weren't given. I have no special insider position to have come across those answers.

It's fine for people to ask for answers as long as they acknowledge the answers were given even if they disagree with them. It's not ok to impugn peoples' good names, claim conspiracy and ask to kill the project simply because one doesn't like the answer.

[Tcmetro]

Well it goes against what is commonly seen in other cities, where people will walk further to use the train rather than the bus. Especially considering that it would be a fast, reliable, high-frequency service. Also, there are a lot of workers in the SW Corridor area that live in South Minneapolis, so the SW line would have a good number of reverse commute riders.

[mattaudio]

And it's also chilling to think that planners said "Thousands of people in Uptown will continue to take a bus, so let's route this thing through a ravine instead." The simple fact that a densely populated node is already originating high bus ridership is MORE reason to connect it to our regional backbone, not less.

[UptownSport]

Wasn't 35W bridge inspected by engineers, just before it fell?
Not questioning supposed authoritys is a good way to get on the path to Dachau.

The line just doesn't make sense, doesn't matter who says it does.

Mod Note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[trkaiser]

I don't mean to take us too far off topic, but do you feel like SW is more poorly routed than Bottineau? Some have suggested moving Bottineau up in the order, but it seems that will traverse more low-density and park lands than SW.

[Silophant]

And it's also chilling to think that planners said "Thousands of people in Uptown will continue to take a bus, so let's route this thing through a ravine instead." The simple fact that a densely populated node is already originating high bus ridership is MORE reason to connect it to our regional backbone, not less.

This. The Green Line is going to be a slam dunk, because it's a spine that already has very high bus ridership. It wouldn't have made sense for the planners there to say "There's already a bunch of people who ride buses on University, lets route this thing up through the industrial areas instead." And it doesn't make sense for them to do it here.

Edit: Punctuation.

[orangevening]

Mpls mayor candidates on SWLRT

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/displa ... state-fair

[orangevening]

I don't mean to take us too far off topic, but do you feel like SW is more poorly routed than Bottineau? Some have suggested moving Bottineau up in the order, but it seems that will traverse more low-density and park lands than SW.

Very true. Almost seems like they are choosing routes though old rail road corridors that are *just* close enough to population/commercial centers because it's the easiest, cheapest option and gets suburbanites faster to downtown.

[Anondson]

Not questioning supposed authoritys is a good way to get on the path to Dachau.

I suppose it that with this thread reaching 57 pages we were nearing the invocation of Godwin's Law, we finally got there!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[Anondson]

Sure, it's fine to question the model. But given that the Met Council went back and redesigned the model under close FTA scrutiny so that it would accurately predict current Hiawatha ridership, I think it's a high bar to demonstrate it's completely wrong.

Would the model need to be shown as completely wrong though? Might there be a "just wrong enough" threshold?

[FISHMANPET]

The Hiawatha line wasn't replacing existing bus service, so you couldn't really make a fare comparison on how many riders would walk farther to the train rather than take an existing bus.

[orangevening]

Maybe this is a dumb question and discussed earlier and I missed it, but like I said in another thread I have no formal education in urban planning. This is just a casual hobby of mine and I find the planning of bike/transit routes fascinating.


Anyway, Thachter and I believe David (apologies if I'm wrong) brought up early-in-the-planning-process pre-3A/3C routes. Lyndale at-grade was only tangible one that was discussed. Just out of curiosity, does anybody have information on other routes discussed early in the planning process? What was the 1(A/B/C) and 2(A/B/C) or, shoot what was the 3B route?

[David Greene]

Anyway, Thachter and I believe David (apologies if I'm wrong) brought up early-in-the-planning-process pre-3A/3C routes. Lyndale at-grade was only tangible one that was discussed. Just out of curiosity, does anybody have information on other routes discussed early in the planning process? What was the 1(A/B/C) and 2(A/B/C) or, shoot what was the 3B route?

I'm pretty fuzzy about stuff from way back when, but if I recall correctly the "1" routes followed the BNSF all the way out to Minnetonka rather than turning south to the Golden Triangle. There was no western anchor which is why those were dropped.

I don't recall what the "2" routes were. That may have been before I got involved.

I'm not sure about the "B" routes either.

Witth Bottineau the very early studies looked at 21 different alignments, so it's probably the case that a lot more was looked at with Southwest too,

[talindsay]

I liked 4c best, it followed nicollet then the greenway to Kenilworth, then ended in Hopkins.

[mattaudio]

Forgot that was even considered. End this at Hopkins until actual land use warrants extension beyond.

[PhilmerPhil]

I remember some routes going along Park and Portland, then the Midtown Gnwy.