35W Freeway Lid and Air Rights Development

[mattaudio]

True, although I'd like to see a vision for this so we can make reasonable choices now that would not set us back in the future. An example (as I've noted elsewhere) is the new stadium's access to 4th St in the trench, which codifies the trench even more.

[Didier]

I love the idea and the ambition of the project but with currently large supply of developable or redevelopable blocks in DTE there is a pretty good chance the new land would just end up as a bunch of parking lots for 25 years. Let's let the current supply dwindle a little bit before we get too ahead of of ourselves.

There's a good thing going in DTE right now, no reason, at this point, to toss in a huge new variable that could upset the entire real estate market in the area.

There's something kind of amazing about Big Ideas Guy not buying into this big idea.

[tab]

I agree with the skeptics that this would not be a cheap idea to implement. Still, the vision begs the question: at what point does 'pie in the sky' become 'obvious no-brainer investment.' If it costs $50m to put a lid over 5 blocks of 35W and create 10 development sites, should the public sector do this if it brings in $100m in land-sale proceeds and increase real estate taxes over the course of a decade? Could the lid be built in sections (starting at Washington and working south, for example), to alleviate the problem of front-loading all of the public costs and creating too much developable land all at once? Calling this a bad idea without understanding the costs/benefits seems premature.
Maybe the MNDOT Commissioner and Steve Cramer are praising the concept because they've studied the numbers enough to know it won't make sense for decades, so there's no harm in publicly praising the vision. Then again, maybe they actually like the concept because the cost/benefit analysis looks excellent? I'm curious to see how this plays out.

[web]

50 million seems cheap. remember the air systems that will be needed

[David Greene]

$50 million seems incredibly cheap. I was assuming enormous costs so I dismissed the idea out of hand. Now, not so much. This could actually happen.

I'm still pretty skeptical about that cost number but if that really is the cost it moves this project into the "no brainer" category.

[Wedgeguy]

When they talk $50M, I believe they are talking about the lid itself and maybe the parking structures. Even if this is done, it will not be a massive project that is done all at once. Just looking at the Big Dig in Boston, they have the main infrastructure done. But they are still working to get other building and fill projects designed and completed.

Not sure if all of the street work and rerouting would be included in that 50M. But some of the street work that is not part of the lid would probably be done as money is available, Like the street behind Bullwinkles, which I think would be a reconnected 3rd. This will definitely be done in phases if it gets done at all.

[BigIdeasGuy]

I love the idea and the ambition of the project but with currently large supply of developable or redevelopable blocks in DTE there is a pretty good chance the new land would just end up as a bunch of parking lots for 25 years. Let's let the current supply dwindle a little bit before we get too ahead of of ourselves.

There's a good thing going in DTE right now, no reason, at this point, to toss in a huge new variable that could upset the entire real estate market in the area.

There's something kind of amazing about Big Ideas Guy not buying into this big idea.

I like the project just not the timing.

[min-chi-cbus]

Right, I tend to agree. It's happening in lots of cities right now in the U.S. but primarily on the coasts like Boston, NYC, DC, etc., which all have minimal developable space. That's not the case here in the Twin Cities. Still, it's not a "bad" idea at all, and someday it will be even more important to get done, and probably much much more expensive and complicated to do so.

[FISHMANPET]

It's not like we're intensifying usage of the land that 35W sits on, I'm not sure what would make it more complicated to do in the future.

[min-chi-cbus]

I guess I was thinking about additional developments abuting the freeway, possible multitudes of different owners of those lands/developments, higher costs of construction labor and materials (exponentially it seems), different political administrations with different ambitions.....stuff like that. I'm not sure how big of a risk those things all are to future projects like these but I wouldn't discount some of them either (like rising costs, for one).

[mattaudio]

It's partially important because it would be great to re-grid as much as possible over the existing trenches. As we redevelop more surface/vacant lots, it becomes more difficult to change the grade of a street even by a few feet to help rise the grid above 35W.

[twincitizen]

A look back at the bridge collapse: http://theuptake.org/2014/03/09/2007-co ... amination/

[lordmoke]

Cedar Avenue is going to get a lot better, but bike lanes might have been nice:
http://www.startribune.com/local/blogs/257360211.html

[RailBaronYarr]

Interesting blog post about air rights and the engineering (cost) issues, even if it does focus more on rail yards. Wish there were more numbers tying challenges to cost and therefore required dev to hit YY ROI (or break-even from subsidy).

[twincitizen]

http://www.mndaily.com/news/metro-state ... ift-summer

Moronic comments by the owner of Midwest Mountaineering, who wants more "traffic", regardless of whether it's passing by or coming into his store:

Rod Johnson, owner of Midwest Mountaineering, said it will be a “disaster” for his business.

“There’s a lot of growth now. There’s new apartments coming up and new parking lots being built,” he said. “We would see more traffic, but making the street into a three-lane won’t bring more traffic.”

Johnson said he and other Cedar Avenue property owners have sent a letter to the City Council and will “be in full force” at next month’s public hearing.

Unfortunately for Johnson, the City Council already approved the layout and the West Bank Business Association supports it, as does just about everyone else in the area. Is this guy a Teapublican or something? He was also a huge loudmouth about not wanting to join the West Bank BID (business improvement district). Also, Rod Johnson.

[mattaudio]

It's hard to imagine a West Bank business, which has been around decades and has OUTDOORSY CLIENTELE forgoshsakes, can be so out of touch.

[FISHMANPET]

This is destination retail for upper middle class white people. Nobody drives by and thinks "I'm gonna buy a kayak!" out of the blue.

[MNdible]

This Cedar Avenue reconstruction stuff probably shouldn't be in this thread.

[FISHMANPET]

Sounds like West Bank Transportation to me, so based on the thread title I'd say it fits.

[twincitizen]

This thread was the result of merging two separate threads about 35W air rights (etc.) in the area.

The older of the two topics, simply titled "West Bank" did include discussion about the Cedar Avenue changes.

I doubt it's something we'll continue talking about for much longer (or much at all), therefore no separate thread.