Minneapolis Streetcar System

[Didier]

There is a picture of the Greenway like five posts up.

[Lancestar2]

There is a picture of the Greenway like five posts up.

yes, but that is not the entire route there is many other bridges.

[seanrichardryan]

I have an original map showing trackage and bridges from 1914. I'll shoot a photo tomorrow.

[mattaudio]

Here's my thoughts on slight improvements to the Mpls streetcar plan

1. Consolidate all streetcar operations at grade on Nicollet Mall, not Nicollet and Hennepin.
2. Build in through-routing from Hennepin to University, Nicollet to Central, and Chicago to Broadway
3. For the University line, follow SE 2nd Street near St. Anthony Main and under the 35W bridge, along the western side of the Dinkytown Trench ROW, then up to street grade between 15th Ave SE and 5th Street, over the trench on the south side of the 5th street overpass. Follow 5th/6th around the stadium then south on 23rd Ave sharing the Stadium Village station.

Future:
From Stadium village, continue south on Huron, the RR ROW over 94, 27th Ave, west on Franklin, Riverside Ave through the West Bank, then back to University which could become a northern east-west streetcar spine through downtown. At Nicollet, the line would cross the N-S spine, where service on this line would terminate, and become another service...

Washington to 10th Ave N, then RR ROW to Broadway, east on Broadway then south on 2nd or University back to Central Ave NE...

How about a map...
http://goo.gl/maps/IIpU

[Nathan]

I really like your ideas there, I think it would be best if the greenway line went to the future Calhoun Area SWLRT station? The North/Chicago loop is great as well as the one serving the U, Great that it's east and west bank.

[mattaudio]

foto- yes it should go to West Lake, but I particularly believe the stretch between Nicollet and West Lake should be built to LRT or near-LRT standards. This would enable re-route of SW to Nicollet ROW at some point in the future, should Nicollet/Central also become LRT at some distant point in the future. Basically from Uptown to Nicollet, Greenway and SW would share ROW. Then SW would turn north out of the trench and share underground ROW with a Nicollet line all the way through downtown. Then at Hennepin and Central in N.E., the lines would split for Central Ave LRT and Roseville LRT. Under this scenario, the currently-planned LRT between West Lake and Penn stations would become a non-rev connector between the two LRT districts (the four lines interlined along 5th or 6th street, and the four lines interlined along nicollet mall)

[mattaudio]

Anyone know the ROW of Washington Ave through Downtown? Are there any possibilities of what a Washington Blvd could look like including streetcar? since I'm thinking about my streetcar ideas mapped here: http://goo.gl/maps/RILqM
It currently appears to be 7 traffic lanes (counting the middle turn lane) + small median.

I wish it was wide enough for one of those "multi-way boulevards" I've seen in Europe and on Streets.mn.

I think there's a possibility we could squeeze this in...
Parking + Slip Lane | planted median | 2 traffic lanes + 2 traffic lanes | planted median | slip lane + parking

I'd place streetcar tracks in the right lane of each direction, adjacent to the planted median. In the median, some ornate fencing could help define the street, likely slowing down traffic in the primary lanes. At locations with streetcar stations, the parking lane would end and the slip lane would move to the curb, leaving a very large median for the streetcar stop. The streetcar stop would only be separated from the main sidewalk only by this slip lane. At a few locations with prominent/busy streetcar spots, the entire slip lane and parking could be foregone, leaving an extremely wide sidewalk.

The only downside I see here with the limited ROW is that it doesn't afford the opportunity for a center median (although the current center median is sparsely vegetated) and it doesn't afford the opportunity for discrete left turn lanes. At a few locations where a left turn lane is desired, parking could be sacrificed to push the four primary lanes apart enough for a turn lane. Otherwise, left turns would need to be prohibited at intersections where streetcars would stop in the right lane, otherwise both primary lanes in a direction could be blocked.

The other difficulty would be planning right-hand turning movements. I'm not sure if slip lanes would want stop signs and forced right turns to side streets at some blocks, or if they'd be a part of the signal system for the primary lanes. Also trying to figure out how streetcars in the right primary lane would affect right turns to side streets, and if cars waiting for the crosswalk to clear would possibly result in delays to streetcars.

Thoughts?

[woofner]

I measured the curb-to-curb recently just using google - I excluded the sidewalks because I would say they are no better than adequate currently so I certainly wouldn't want to see them any smaller. Anyway here are my numbers for existing:

3rd Ave N - 2nd Ave N:
Through + Parking 21
Through 11
TWLTL 13
Through 11
Through + Parking 24
Curb-to-Curb 80

2nd Ave N - 1st Ave N:
Through + Parking 23
Through 12
Median 10
Through 12
Through + Parking 23
Curb-to-Curb 80

1st Ave N - Hennepin Ave:
Parking (Peak restriction) 12
Through 11
Through 11
Alt LTLs 12
Through 11
Through 11
Parking (Peak restriction) 12
Curb-to-Curb 80

Hennepin Ave - 4th Ave S
Through 12
Through 12
Through 12
Median/LTLs 14-16
Through 12
Through 12
Through 12
Curb-to-Curb 86-88

4th Ave S - 5th Ave S
Through 12
Through 12
Through 12
Alt. LTLs 12 to 16
Through 12
Through 12
Through 12
Curb-to-Curb 84-88

East of Portland the total ROW is 120' and the curb-to-curb is around 95'. In that section I'd say a multi-way alignment like you describe is possible but west of 5th I doubt it. Maybe I'm wrong though - we'll see this year supposedly when Henn Cty releases the layouts for their reconstruction.

Personally I'd say Washington doesn't have the ridership for streetcar, but it would be cool to see the 3, the 7 and the 22 routed there with some improved passenger facilities and maybe even dedicated lanes and see if it gets more popular.

[mattaudio]

Maybe west of 5th Ave there could be parking and a slip lane on only one side. If this was the case, I'd like to see a median between the primary lanes though, so it would be Lane+Streetcar|Lane|Median|Lane|Lane+Streetcar|Median|Slip Lane|Parking

[mattaudio]

The streetcar would serve three lines in my vision.

- It would host the University line (west of 9th Ave) from St. Paul to East Bank to West Bank to Downtown to North Loop.
- It would host the Uptown-University loop back into downtown via Cedar/Riverside, then at Nicollet it would be a seamless switch to...
- The North Loop/Northeast/Chicago Ave loop which would use Washington up to Broadway.
- Finally, it could someday host a connection to the Broadway line, which would travel down Washington to Chicago (or maybe 11th Ave) then south to pick up the said Chicago line's 10th Street alignment back through downtown, then around Loring Park to Lyndale Ave S.

[seanrichardryan]

How would it connect on the west bank, seven corners area?

[mattaudio]

How would it connect on the west bank, seven corners area?

Only one line would cross 35W on Washington to 7 corners... the line would go south on Cedar then east on Riverside to Franklin where it would loop through East Bank, Dinkytown, and to the Hennepin Ave bridge.

The Lyndale-North line (optional) would turn south at Chicago or 11th Ave to loop back towards Loring Park.
The proposed extension of the campus connector via Green Line LRT trackage would cross over to Washington on the old diagonal MILW alignment then join Washington Ave through to North Loop.

[ECtransplant]

http://finance-commerce.com/2012/08/see ... ban-spine/

Someone with a subscription care to update us?

[mulad]

A lot of the story is going over the history of streetcar plans in the city and listing costs that have been seen for streetcar lines around the country, ranging from a $250 million investment for a 7-mile line in Portland to a $69 million, 1.3-mile line in Atlanta.

Anyway, the story covers the Alternatives Analysis phase currently underway for the Nicollet-Central line. I'll mention right now that some open houses are scheduled:

• Wednesday, Sept. 26, 11 a.m., Minneapolis Central Library, 300 Nicollet Mall.
• Wednesday, Sept. 26, 5:30 p.m., 5th Precinct Police Station, 3101 Nicollet Ave. S.
• Wednesday, Sept. 27, 5:30 p.m., Eastside Food Co-Op, 2551 Central Ave. NE.

The AA includes alternatives like the "rapid bus" service, estimated at $4 to $6 million per mile, which is much cheaper than the $30 to $60 million per mile for streetcars. (Though I wonder how much buses would cost if streets were maintained as well as rails typically are.) They're planning to keep the overall budget below $150 million, since the largest federal grant so far for these "Small Starts" projects has been $75 million (and local transit projects are limited to getting 50% of funding from the feds). It's also unclear how much money might be able to be raised locally. They might start with just 2 to 4 miles.

There might be some inclusion of other potential streetcar routes, like the Midtown Corridor -- It would be best if the different lines could share maintenance facilities or possibly make a larger order for vehicles, reducing overall costs.

The overall cost for the whole streetcar network in Minneapolis was estimated at $663 million, so I think it's really frustrating that the Small Starts program has had such small payouts so far -- I figure there should really be some middle ground between that program and New Starts, which handles light rail and subway/elevated rapid transit systems.

We'll have to see if the AA will lean more toward the Rapid Bus system or streetcars.

Also, there was a mention of a streetcar study for Saint Paul. A year-long feasibility study is supposed to start next week: http://stpaul.gov/index.aspx?NID=4872

[VAStationDude]

Rapid bus is the way to go if improved mobility is the goal. Street cars are fancy but are no faster than rapid bus. Chicago, central and Nicollet rapid bus could be implemented for the cost of a duplicative starter street car.

[mattaudio]

We know that rapid bus done right would be just as good. But rapid bus done right would cost a lot as well. Unfortunately rapid bus, BRT, and other bus-based systems are promised as "just like rail" but then amenities are cut and it basically turns into a few enhancements of the existing service. That's my concern with rapid bus.

[Tcmetro]

Rapid bus is $1-3 million per mile, much cheaper than a streetcar.

[VAStationDude]

Agreed. We'll see if metro transit can stick to wide station spacing and proof of payment fare system on Snelling and West 7th. Personally I don't think rail in mixed traffic is a good idea. It will be slow, delay prone and costly.

[min-chi-cbus]

There is a bus rapid line here in Cleveland that I frequent because it goes to the Cleveland Clinic (the Midwest's OTHER Mayo Clinic), but I personally HATE it! It's SO slow because it stops every other block if people request to stop, making the 3-5 mile trip take 30 minutes minimum. I guess it's neat they these buses have their own personal lanes, ROW, and lights, but it really isn't efficient in my opinion.

Take that for what it's worth.

[woofner]

Cleveland's Health Line really seems to stretch the meaning of the term rapid transit - 30 stations in 6.8 miles is impossible to serve rapidly. Metro Transit's arterial transitways - which they're not claiming to be rapid transit - are planned to have fewer stops per mile than that, although we'll see how many they end up with once the politicking starts. Maybe pertinent to the Central Corridor - does the Health Line get a lot of interference from left turning vehicles? I just got back from New Orleans and their streetcar lines are basically non-functional because no one has qualms about parking in the median right in front of a moving streetcar (or biking or walking in the median for that matter).

Back to the topic at hand, the city just put up a survey about Nicollet-Central:

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/news/WCMS1P-098107