Green Line LRT

[Didier]

Anecdotally, if you actually see the Green Line trains in action, it's quite clear that their cruising speed is faster than that of the cars.

Plus, even with the station stops, the trains tend to run pretty evenly with traffic since the LRT hits fewer stoplights.

Ultimately, the trains lose time in certain areas, such as the stretch with all of the turns between Prospect Park and Stadium Village, or once they get into the downtowns.

But the assumption that the LRT is effectively a streetcar isn't really accurate.

[mplsjaromir]

The conversation regarding whether a streetcar or LRT was more appropriate for this corridor got me thinking. Portland's streetcar was brought up as a comparison. I did an admittedly amateur comparison of the two line's construction.

Green Line - 9.8 miles of new track - 47 vehicles (200 passengers per vehicle) - $957 million (2014 dollars)
Portland Streetcar - 7.35 miles of track - 15 vehicles (157 passengers per vehicle) - $284.59 million (2014 dollars)

Looking at the pure mileage of track laid Portland seems to be the clear winner. 75% of track miles for 30% of the cost. But from what I ascertained about the line I can see where the old adage 'you get what you pay for' comes into play.

First PSC has several sections that are single tracked, a cost saving measure to be sure. Because of this frequencies on the line at their peak, are 17 minutes (although they appear to have a functioning NexTrip like system). GL LRT operates at peak 10 minute frequencies. Probably cannot increase due to congestion on 5th Street in downtown Minneapolis.

Secondly examine average speeds. GL LRT has been maligned for being too darn slow. It is scheduled to run at 13.75mph, clearly it has not always performed at that speed. Oftentimes being as slow as 10mph or less. In Portland on the PSC the CL line is scheduled to run at 3.82mph (27.8% the speed of GL LRT) and the NS line is scheduled to run at 3.2mph (23% the speed of GL LRT). One can see where the cost savings show up.

Capacity, the GL LRT can utilize 39 vehicles at any given time, each with a maximum capacity of 200 riders. That equates to 7800 riders using the line at one time. PSC in theory could put all fifteen of their vehicles and serve 2355 passengers. PSC stations are built to serve only a single vehicle at a time, even if technically possible to couple vehicles together, the built infrastructure does not warrant that type of operation. Spend less money, receive less utility.

From what I can tell only the PSC Lowell (.4 miles) and Riverplace (.6 miles) extensions included road reconstructions into their capital budgets. GL LRT included street and sidewalks improvements along the entire corridor, necessary, but not free.

Last but not least ridership. PSC has 13,100 daily riders, GL LRT 40,445. In other words PSC more a decade since initial operation generates 32.38% the ridership of GL LRT with less than a quarter year of operation.

This post is not meant to denigrate Portland's Streetcar or streetcars in general. Nor is it meant to absolve Metro Transit or the FTA. I think one has to critically look what was built and determine if worth the trouble. My position I think echoes others on this forum, the majority of the heavy lifting has been done. The bridge work (35W flyover, Washington Ave) , three car stations along the entire route, 18.3" track slab. Changes to stoplight timing and priority can be adjusted, if the need arises and political will coalesces, grade separation in critical areas can be built. The Green Line with its 24 hour operation and strong early ridership numbers show that useful transit can be built. Now if we could only figure out how the Spanish build tunnels so cheaply...

PSC Budget
CL Line
NS Line

[mulad]

I have a vague recollection from when I really delved into the Twin Cities streetcar history several years ago that at one point, the TCRT system averaged about 12.5 mph, which made it pretty fast compared to other systems across the country. That was probably from a time in the 1920s or '30s, before car traffic became overwhelming, before traffic signals were widely used, and even before the current borders of Minneapolis and Saint Paul were fully filled out with houses and businesses. I'll have to dig around and see if there was a date attached to that number and if my memory is accurate...

[talindsay]

I also wonder, if it was an average, whether the long stretches of essentially streetcar commuter rail - hauling people out to Excelsior and Stillwater, even if infrequently - made our averages look higher. Sprawly systems typically have higher average speeds.

[EOst]

I doubt that includes the commuter route; Lake to Old St. Anthony (the proposed route for the Nicollet-Central) takes about 40 minutes on the 17/18 to go the 4-ish miles, and that includes a lot of long lights downtown.

[nate]

I'm thinking that an impossible-to-quantify ancillary benefit of the Green Line is the way it changes peoples "mental map" (for lack of a better term) of the cities. Many outstate people I meet seem to think of Minneapolis and St Paul primarily as a collection of major landmarks, with little of interest in between...like a 17th century map of North America that shows the East and West coasts with a hazy blank space in between.

They'll know where Target Field and the State Capitol are, but because their experience of StPaul is limited to I-94, they have little concept that there's dozens of distinct neighborhoods there, each with their own schools, shops, restaurants, parks, and people who call it home.

I had this thought while listening to a couple from Red Wing on the way to the Twins game point out the train windows like little kids:
-Look at the traffic jam on 94!
-what do you suppose that building is? ( the MDH building at Robert Street)
- they're building something big there! (The legislative office building)
- that place looks like a good restaurant. (Mai Village)
- that's a mighty big library (University and Dale)

I've seen similar reactions from lots of people, over the course of the summer.

I think the train humanizes our city, or makes it easier for people that aren't familiar with it to wrap their head around it. I don't know what this means, in the grand scheme of things...but it can only be a positive, right?

[mullen]

kstp led their 10 pm news lastl night with this jay kolls piece about sidewalk upgrade assessments to univ ave businesses.
i thought these were included in the total project budget. st paul lobbied for this. guess it was in the "fine print".
http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3570531.shtml?cat=1

[Didier]

I didn't see the article, but businesses outside the Westgate station had signs up about the sidewalk work.

They definitely replaced the whole sidewalk in this area during the LRT construction. It's a lot nicer than it was, with the edge closest to the road having bricks instead of cement.

Also, the e-cigarette store literally right across the street from Westgate has apparently closed. It's a very small but primo location for... something?

[ProspectPete]

So now what happened downstream on the green line?. Shut down at hamline. Amazing how one act of stupidity basically takes the thing out of service.

[Chava]

So why don't we have these around stations to keep pedestrians off the tracks at station entrances?

[Chauncey87]

This

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_ ... source=rss

"Pedestrian struck, injured by Green Line train in St. Paul"

"A Green Line light-rail train struck a pedestrian along St. Paul's University Avenue early Thursday evening, possibly breaking the victim's leg, Metro Transit officials said."

I have a feeling this is going to happen at least a dozen times a year. The corridor is way to dense for this line to run at grade the entire way. Yet it wasn't dense enough for any grade segregation. Human injury and lives really do a have price.

[grant1simons2]

Thanks for your public expression. I'm sure it was the trains fault.. and not a person trying to make it past the train or looking at his or her phone.

[HuskyGrad]

Thanks for your public expression. I'm sure it was the trains fault.. and not a person trying to make it past the train or looking at his or her phone.

"Pedestrian unsuccessfully walks in front of train"


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Snelbian]

Anyone know how many auto related accidents there are per year on University? It's probably too active for cars to be operating at grade.

[ECtransplant]

There would be worse things than removing cars from more dense corridors in this city

[xandrex]

Thanks for your public expression. I'm sure it was the trains fault.. and not a person trying to make it past the train or looking at his or her phone.

I've never really understood how we can have so many accidents with trains. Does nobody look when they cross the road? Even if I get engrossed in my phone while in the sidewalk, I have enough sense to stop at street corners or when crossing tracks. Then again, I also don't run after buses/trains, so maybe I'm Metro Transit's poster child for "Be Safe! Don't Chase!"

[VAStationDude]

Nearly every time I ride east through Rice Street some idiot turns right against a red turn arrow onto southbound Rice in front of a train. People are inattentive morons.

[FISHMANPET]

I think part of it is that people just need to get used to there being a train. I love this video from when Houston's light rail first opened:


Apparently it's gotten better there, as people have gotten used to a train running next to them.

[MinnMonkey]

Not to make light of the situation, but it is pretty easy to NOT be hit by a train.

[FISHMANPET]

Yeah, I don't know. It's a frickin train. It has horns and stuff. And it's a huge 300 foot train. Also it's a giant train. I'm finding it hard to have a lot of sympathy for the collisions that have happened so far, because it's a giant train. It has horns and lights. It's huge. How do you miss it.