Nicollet-Central Streetcar

[mister.shoes]

4b/IDEA. I don't like splitting up E Hennepin/1st Ave NE either. I'd like to entertain putting both tracks on 1st Ave NE, in the northernmost 2 lanes (1 parking/turn lane, 1 driving lane), not shared with vehicles. This would facilitate a much easier turn onto Central Ave as well. Also, those lanes on the Hennepin Ave bridge better not be shared with cars. It's high time to reduce that bridge to 2 lanes each direction. It's not a highway.

I like where you're going with this. Why not make the north half of that bridge 100% auto-free? Streetcar + wide bikeway + pedestrian from Main street to West River Parkway. The south half is 100% auto lanes: two narrowish lanes going each way with no sidewalk. Both Hennepin and 1st will become two-way on the NE side of the river, solving the "how do we deal with the bridge if we convert the streets to two-way in NE?" problem.

[mattaudio]

If that's the case, why not keep the streetcar on Hennepin, but move more of the two-way traffic flows to 1st?

Either way, I think the streetcar should take over the inside lanes of both spans on the Hennepin bridge. Due to streetcar loading gauge being significantly narrower than a traffic lane plus curb reaction zone, it should be completely possible to do a streetcar, two traffic lanes, AND a wider bike lane within the existing deck space.

[mister.shoes]

If that's the case, why not keep the streetcar on Hennepin, but move more of the two-way traffic flows to 1st?

Good point. Makes a lot of sense so the tracks don't have to come back to Hennepin in NE.

[mattaudio]

Or, if we decide we want a three-lane two-way profile on both Hennepin and 1st, why not align them a little different near Central and Hennepin? That skewed intersection is a cluster anyways. There's a few ways it could be done.

[twincitizen]

Despite all of the skepticism towards streetcars (shared by me), the closer this comes to reality, the more enthusiastic I become about it. I do think we need to seriously look at getting as much exclusive ROW as possible to speed it up. Signal priority too, of course, should be paid close attention to.

Besides the cost per mile of streetcar (relative to how much aBRT infrastructure could be built), and the lack of speed improvement over the bus, the greatest (and most damning) criticism of streetcars has been frequency. Many metros around the country are building streetcar lines that have headways of 15 minutes OR GREATER. I think the one in Salt Lake is 20 mins...yikes. This looks to be one area where Minneapolis will do better than most modern streetcar lines - we're planning on 7.5 minute headways. Even that, I'm afraid, may not be enough. Think how full the 18 is today, at 6-7 minute headways. Now factor in rail bias (+50% ridership at least), and you've eaten up all of the additional capacity that a streetcar provides over a 40' bus. This thing is going to be at capacity on DAY ONE if we don't do better than 7.5 minute headways. While the initial budget will limit how many vehicles we can purchase, I really hope that we plan this line to be able to handle much greater frequency. For short trips such as this, frequency trumps speed all day long.

[Tcmetro]

1. Potentially awesome. That's .3 mile. I won't believe it til I see it though. Plus, there'd likely be at least one bus stop in that span, which the streetcar will get stuck behind, so I'm not popping the champagne yet. I think a lot of this hinges on whether Nicollet Mall is actually able to squeeze in that island thing between 6th and 8th. That would leave the remaining building-side sidewalks so narrow that you could not possibly have transit stops (no room for shelters or queueing space).

2. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Whatever they do, they had better plan it around the development of that block.
3. Why is Harrison preferred? By whom? That seems less ideal and requires a sizable amount of non-revenue track to be built along E Hennepin.
4. I'm still not convinced that Nicollet (Eat Street) should retain its 3-lane profile. If it does, snow will need to be FULLY removed from the parking lanes to keep parked cars out of the streetcar's "clear zone". Last winter, the snow accumulation pushed parked cars way out from the curb, essentially leaving a 2-lane street--the center lane was "shared" by each direction as part of the driving lane.

4b/IDEA. I don't like splitting up E Hennepin/1st Ave NE either. I'd like to entertain putting both tracks on 1st Ave NE, in the northernmost 2 lanes (1 parking/turn lane, 1 driving lane), not shared with vehicles. This would facilitate a much easier turn onto Central Ave as well. Also, those lanes on the Hennepin Ave bridge better not be shared with cars. It's high time to reduce that bridge to 2 lanes each direction. It's not a highway.

1. The Nicollet Mall layouts shown at the Downtown building showcase seemed to include the skyway connections between 6th and 7th as well as 7th and 8th.

2. Agree completely. I think the streetcar should run around the block in order to maximize development opportunities.

3. I'm assuming Harrison is the preferred OMF because it isn't a desirable redevelopment opportunity, and there is a lot of space there to store cars for future lines and extensions. I wonder if they are considering the needs of the Broadway line with the OMF decision. Additionally, it is most prominently shown on the layout. The 14th Ave NE one is interesting too, because it could lead to a short extension up to Lowry or 27th.

4. Agree as well. Minneapolis is going to have to step up to clear Nicollet better, or they need to reconfigure the street.

[xandrex]

- No stops on Nicollet Mall from 9th to 5th.

It's not a huge deal (because if you're on Nicollet in this area, the most you'd have to walk to get to one of the stations is two blocks, but isn't it a missed opportunity to directly hit the intersection with some of the highest bus ridership rates in the state?

3. Why is Harrison preferred? By whom? That seems less ideal and requires a sizable amount of non-revenue track to be built along E Hennepin.

Not great that you need non-revenue track, but frankly, that area isn't particularly desirable for development (it's right up against train tracks too, essentially). I'd rather have the "downtown NE" commercial core fill up with businesses and residents over a maintenance facility (who wants to live next to one?)

[twincitizen]

4. I'm still not convinced that Nicollet (Eat Street) should retain its 3-lane profile. If it does, snow will need to be FULLY removed from the parking lanes to keep parked cars out of the streetcar's "clear zone". Last winter, the snow accumulation pushed parked cars way out from the curb, essentially leaving a 2-lane street--the center lane was "shared" by each direction as part of the driving lane.

4. Agree as well. Minneapolis is going to have to step up to clear Nicollet better, or they need to reconfigure the street.

There may be a bunch of mid-block driveways on Nicollet today, but that will change with development, when hopefully most parking lots/structures are accessed by alley or cross street. Those driveways should be right-in, right-out anyways with the streetcar coming. A 3-lane profile is not a long term plan and is a major waste of ROW. Obviously you want turn lanes at the major intersections to get those vehicles out of the streetcar's path, but having a mile-long 12' suicide lane from 28th to Franklin is not the answer.


EDIT: Also, Nicollet Mall should be extended to 15th. Get those cars out of there! And how about no taxis allowed north of 11th/12th or something.

[EOst]

Despite all of the skepticism towards streetcars (shared by me), the closer this comes to reality, the more enthusiastic I become about it. I do think we need to seriously look at getting as much exclusive ROW as possible to speed it up. Signal priority too, of course, should be paid close attention to.

I'm actually a lot more concerned about signal priority than exclusive lanes. I ride the 18 several times every day; traffic on Nicollet can sometimes slow down the bus, but it's rare for the bus to have to wait for a car to move so it can get to the stop, or anything like that. Besides, this streetcar already has more exclusive ROW (via the Mall) than nearly any other streetcar project in the country. What slows the 18 down is waiting at stop lights, particularly Franklin, Grant, and those intersections downtown. Even some slight signal priority there could have a massive effect on service reliability and perception.

Besides the cost per mile of streetcar (relative to how much aBRT infrastructure could be built), and the lack of speed improvement over the bus, the greatest (and most damning) criticism of streetcars has been frequency. Many metros around the country are building streetcar lines that have headways of 15 minutes OR GREATER. I think the one in Salt Lake is 20 mins...yikes. This looks to be one area where Minneapolis will do better than most modern streetcar lines - we're planning on 7.5 minute headways. Even that, I'm afraid, may not be enough. Think how full the 18 is today, at 6-7 minute headways. Now factor in rail bias (+50% ridership at least), and you've eaten up all of the additional capacity that a streetcar provides over a 40' bus. This thing is going to be at capacity on DAY ONE if we don't do better than 7.5 minute headways. While the initial budget will limit how many vehicles we can purchase, I really hope that we plan this line to be able to handle much greater frequency. For short trips such as this, frequency trumps speed all day long.

This could even be understating the problem, because in the section that interlines with the 17 the gaps are significantly shorter, and they're all still full. I expect the residual 18s (for south of Lake) and 17s to absorb some of that demand, though; not everyone who currently takes those buses will be switching to this.

[matt91486]

Oh man. This is so cool. Can I ask if there is any sort of timeline for this? Is there hope it could be incorporated into the Mall redo? I see they're often referencing that design.

I've always wondered if the intersection of Hennepin/Nicollet/Washington, and then going down Hennepin to the 2nd and 2st st intersections, could be redone to give a bit more priority to pedestrians and help connect the mall to the river. It seems like this could make a really easy connection without much effort.

Also, it would be great to see the streetcar extended down either Hennepin or Central. I think that would help connect NE to the city, and really make the St. Anthony Main/Hennepin & Central area feel like a part of the city (more so than having the streetcar terminate so close to the river at the Superior Plating site.

I perhaps naively thought it might go up toward Central/Lowry; clearly it's stopping well before that. Though I guess there is that one narrow underpass on Central they would have to contend with.

[EOst]

The long-term plan is to extend it north on Central and south on Nicollet; this is a starter segment for the parts that have the greatest redevelopment and tourism potential.

[Wedgeguy]

I believe that narrow bypass is at the moment being rebuilt. That is the reason for the detour this summer on Central. They are replacing that train bridge over Central.

[talindsay]

Anybody notice that option 7 for the Washington / Nicollet / Hennepin action is called "clockwise around the block" even though the movements are anticlockwise? What's funny is that the *other* around-the-block option - 5A - actually *does* cross the tracks in a way that causes the movement to be clockwise. So clearly they misnamed them.

Option 5A seems the oddest of the options to me; otherwise they all seem pretty decent, so it will probably make sense to decide based on cost considerations, but I prefer options that (1) keep as much of the block intact as possible; and (2) limit the distance the tracks are in mixed traffic. So to that end I probably prefer option 2; although option 6a has enough obvious advantages that it may be worthwhile even with the damage it does to the integrity of the block.

I look at these plans and I *am* concerned about just how much it may jam up Nicollet south of downtown; I suppose traffic down there is relatively light and it's not a heavy commuter way so I'm not too worried about auto traffic, but the streetcars will have lots of opportunity to get backed up by cars doing stupid things. From the Mall north there's really nowhere that I expect them to have trouble.

[MNdible]

Do we assume that the remaining buses along this route will be stopping at only the streetcar stations? Or will there be additional bus stops?

There does seem to be a sort of random mix of near and far-side stops.

And while I don't think that there needs to be many more stops along the Nicollet Mall section of the route, it does seem sort of bizarre to not have one at Nicollet and 7th, given that this is the 100% node of downtown, and also (as noted above) the busiest bus stop in the upper midwest. I suspect that the decision to omit it is being driven by some high-falutin' NYC design firm's ideas for that intersection more than the needs of transit users.

[grant1simons2]

Remember people. This is just the environmental assessment and I'm sure there will be a phase for public comment and multiple changes made. So if you don't like it or such please please please go to the meeting that is imminent and express your opinion. This will probably open in 2018 so we have plenty of time to make changes that would be better for the car. I'm calling out you mulad and matt because you are the 2 major transit geeks on here. Also mulad, retiredbanker said that he would've hired you if he was in charge of a transit company in the Twin Cities, so don't doubt your ideas!

I seriously want this line to work because it is down 2 of the most well known roads in the TC's and will make a big impact. It goes through one of the densest parts of the city and passes by many future retail spots. It's insane to think of what the city will look like when I graduate from college. And this would be one of the biggest changes.

[acs]

I think that where the stops are will largely depend on the Nicollet mall reconstruction project and where they have space, however I am a little disappointed by the number of stops overall, with fewer being better. Secondly, while I don't know the specific situation at each intersection, it seems like they are defaulting to near-side stops instead of far-side, which is bad. I hope they can work to fix both though this process, but overall it's good to see this project moving forward.

[mattaudio]

So, are double-length streetcar platforms a non-starter? This would be roughly half the total length of a 3-car LRT platform. Seems like an important consideration for future-proofing... We need 5-7 minute frequency first, but what happens if we need to add capacity? I know some "legacy" systems like the Boston Green Line run head-to-tail, especially in shared corridors which funnel multiple services. But that seems like excessive labor costs for a new system, if it becomes that popular. Hopefully we could extend platforms in the future.

[David Greene]

Just make about a two mile platform. The frequency can be kept high and the travel time will be fantastic!

[matt91486]

I believe that narrow bypass is at the moment being rebuilt. That is the reason for the detour this summer on Central. They are replacing that train bridge over Central.

Ah, Ok - this is what happens when i comment when I'm geographically no longer in the area full time.

[talindsay]

Just make about a two mile platform. The frequency can be kept high and the travel time will be fantastic!

I know you're being facetious, but that's exactly what they did with the Chicago subway segments downtown. Operationally it gave them the flexibility to change around exactly where the "stations" are without rebuilding anything, although I don't think they've ever changed it. An approach like this *could* probably be done well on a low-floor streetcar line, though I doubt anybody would seriously advocate for it since it would have higher maintenance costs and restrict other uses.