Nicollet-Central Streetcar

[FISHMANPET]

And putting the rails in mixed traffic removes some of the smoothness (stop and go traffic is not going to be as smooth as riding on the Blue or Green line) and I'm not so sure that maintaining tracks embedded in the road is going to be easier to maintain than ballasted or turf track.

(though probably easier to maintain than this:)

[EOst]

The smoothness isn't just the acceleration and deceleration, it's the smooth surface of the rails, it's the lack of weaving from side to side as buses often do, etc.

[Uptown46]

Speaking of weaving, one of my concerns about the plans as they've been shown is it looks like they are considering having the streetcar follow the curving nature of Nicollet Mall [Mile]. Having the trains go through essentially continuous curves for blocks and blocks seems to ignore the fact that straight runs are what rail transit is good at. Having been most jostled on streetcars in other cities by curves, I would prefer to see us minimize the curves on this line. Hopefully this changes as the plans for Nicollet Mile evolve.

[VAStationDude]

The Portland street car is far from smooth. Perhaps because their rolling stock is pretty crummy.

[mattaudio]

Do the axel-less trucks have anything to do with that?

[woofner]

Speaking of weaving, one of my concerns about the plans as they've been shown is it looks like they are considering having the streetcar follow the curving nature of Nicollet Mall [Mile]

This will also be very loud.

[EOst]

That's on the Mall redesign. They wanted to maintain the original character of the curves.

[mplsjaromir]

Looks like if this project happens, there will not be pressure to buy the POS Portland vehicles.

Portland Streetcar goes down

[mattaudio]

Posting this here rather than the Nicollet Hotel thread... but I don't see a technical reason why the streetcar couldn't just go through the portico of the Northwestern National Life building, with a station underneath? It would follow the original Nicollet Ave alignment north to the intersection at 1st Street. The average streetcar is well under 9' wide. The width between columns appears to be 9-10' wide.

[nBode]

Interesting/very creative idea, but I don't think taking over this pedestrian route with transit would be a good call. Looking at this view, though, I do really wish the pedestrian connection across Washington was stronger and prioritized. I think if the portion of the Mall between 3rd and Washington were closed to traffic, then it could be a true pedestrian corridor and really emphasize the route to the river across Washington (if that makes sense).

[MNdible]

It might be technically feasible, but why would we want to do that?

It might be marginally faster, but it would interfere with the city's larger goal of building a green connection between Nicollet Mall and the River.

Also, that image to me refutes the claim that the NW Mutual building obstructs that connection -- to me, it quite nicely frames it. There are some subtle landscape/streetscape things that could be done to reinforce that people can pass through there, but it doesn't bother me at all.

[seanrichardryan]

Have we considered a tunnel under the portico?

[mattaudio]

Also, that image to me refutes the claim that the NW Mutual building obstructs that connection -- to me, it quite nicely frames it.

Besides simplifying operations and signal phasing at Hennepin/Washington, blasting streetcar under the portico at the north end of the mall would say, for the first time, this is actually a corridor to pass through. I think it would actually encourage walking along the Nicollet pedshed towards the river.

[MNdible]

But you're just shifting the operational problem further down the line. Now you're going to have to merge into Hennepin Avenue mid-stream, with some sort of messed up signalized cross-over.

I feel like most people don't share your opinion that this building is a great travesty. There are many reasons that people aren't particularly motivated to walk between the north end of the Mall and the River, and this building ranks way down at the very bottom of the list.

[lordmoke]

There are many reasons that people aren't particularly motivated to walk between the north end of the Mall and the River, and this building ranks way down at the very bottom of the list.

Higher up on the list would be that there's nothing there to walk to, save for more places to walk around.

[mattaudio]

I actually don't hate the building or the portico... I think it looks quite nice. But actually shifting the "operational problem" of merging onto Hennepin ROW north of Washington would actually be advantageous compared to trying to turn streetcars onto Hennepin at Washington or 3rd St.

[mulad]

I suspect engineers would first point out how spindly the legs of the portico are, and that they could be vulnerable if a train derailed -- just look at the massive deflectors that were built around the supports of the pedestrian bridges on Northrop Mall. Over there, I think they went a bit overboard with that reinforcement, though a derailment is something to consider carefully here since it's right by an intersection with Washington Avenue -- one of the major causes of derailments is collisions with road vehicles.

[twincitizen]

If you figure that 3rd Street will be the primary vehicle/truck entrance to the Nicollet hotel block development, the "3rd Street" (page 22) and "around the block" (page 23) options are probably out due to their placement of the NB streetcar platform against the new building (and thereby adjacent to its principal vehicle access point - "CAR APPROACHING!!").

Assuming for a second that the corner cut option is also out of consideration, that leaves the "clockwise around the block" (page 25) and "Washington" (page 21) options. I actually think those are probably the best two choices anyways, though neither really sticks out as advantageous. I think it depends on how much signal priority would be given to transit at the particular intersections. The "Washington" option keeps both streetcar platforms on Nicollet, which is advantageous for transit legibility. In the "clockwise" option, the NB platform is on Nicollet (Cancer Survivors Park) and the SB platform is on 3rd, adjacent to the library, in a contraflow transit-only lane. This requires a left turn lane to be added from SB Hennepin to EB 3rd, thereby shortening the existing left turn lane from NB Hennepin to WB Washington.

A potential serious downside is that both of the options I've identified require a "free right turn" from WB Washington to NB Hennepin for NB streetcars, taking away ROW from Gateway Park. You'd hope that can be built in a way that keeps cars out of the free right turn.

[mattaudio]

We should also think about how this may integrate with future streetcars as well. I'd rather see the Washington option out of those two, because it would allow for potential streetcars from Nicollet Mall northwestbound on Washington Ave with fewer intersection headaches than the clockwise option. Remember, we may want a streetcar up Washington alongside Bottineau. http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 254903.pdf

[twincitizen]

The plans show how a Washington (to Broadway) streetcar would be integrated for each of these options. Both "clockwise" and "Washington" accomplish this in a very straightforward manner, as does the corner cut. The options I discarded above ("3rd St" and "around the block") get quite messy, knocking them even further out of consideration.