Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
froggie
Rice Park
Posts: 418
Joined: March 7th, 2014, 6:52 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby froggie » March 5th, 2015, 12:32 pm

I'm with Matt...I could not get to Alex's streetmix images.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2625
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 5th, 2015, 12:41 pm

I'm not sure what's up with the links, I tried them in another Chrome login and they loaded up just fine. I mean, there's nothing special about them, boilerplate MWB stuff. I agree with alleycat, doesn't seem like we were that different, though I hadn't considered a center green/public space like the WATM or LRT/bus sharing the same ROW. IMO that would work very well in a VERY ped-oriented environment with retail or active uses flanking both sides. I think we'd all like to eventually see that here, but it will be many years for a good chunk of lots to redevelop. I agree on trees, though - I had 6' dividers between slip- and thru-lanes for big trees.

froggie
Rice Park
Posts: 418
Joined: March 7th, 2014, 6:52 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby froggie » March 5th, 2015, 4:02 pm

I'm getting a ROW width pinchpoint of 184' east of Bryant Ave, not 210'. This would probably have some ramifications on any multiway boulevard proposal, especially Alex's proposal that includes bus lanes.

BTW, the problem with Alex's links is that it doesn't include the www. in front. Usually not a big deal with streetmix, but apparently a big deal when including direct links to images.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4617
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » March 5th, 2015, 4:50 pm

BTW, the problem with Alex's links is that it doesn't include the www. in front. Usually not a big deal with streetmix, but apparently a big deal when including direct links to images.
Ah. Now that I can seem them, they don't look anything like what I imagined. Here's what I was thinking, remebering that the buses share the LRT ROW.

Image
http://www.streetmix.net/DavidGreeneMN/ ... ravel-area

Image
http://www.streetmix.net/DavidGreeneMN/ ... ation-area

You could do a split station design to get more contiguous greenspace but that might reduce the usefulness of the parklets.
I'm getting a ROW width pinchpoint of 184' east of Bryant Ave, not 210'. This would probably have some ramifications on any multiway boulevard proposal, especially Alex's proposal that includes bus lanes.
The above is on 160' if I understand things correctly. More space == more green!

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2424
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: Saint Paul

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » March 5th, 2015, 6:10 pm

I don't think it's technically park land. I've never seen someone use it like that. I'm guessing it's MNDOT's land. There was of course a time when this area had a nice commercial hub.
Yep--looks like that whole area was leveled when they built the southern service road for Olson, at some point between '61 and '71. Amazing that it's been vacant since.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2625
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 5th, 2015, 8:01 pm

I'm getting a ROW width pinchpoint of 184' east of Bryant Ave, not 210'. This would probably have some ramifications on any multiway boulevard proposal, especially Alex's proposal that includes bus lanes.
Yeah I guess that little property jut up east of Bryant is so small (with no building in it, either) I figured any serious redevelopment could buy it out to get a 200+ ft ROW to work with. Not that 184' isn't enough to do some great things, but it would certainly seem wise to open up options.

I like David's proposals, but it lacks things like on-street parking and left turn provisions. I don't know if buses sharing the LRT ROW is a good or bad thing for operations in this case, but at most the stretch is 1.3 miles so it's not a huge deal. Another thought, with the stations on the inside as proposed some buses wouldn't be able to use platforms; I don't think our aBRT buses will have doors on both sides. I really do like the provision for trees across the 160' expanse, I guess it all depends if we want this as more of a LRT + highway + greenway that may support some redevelopment or if we're willing to sacrifice some greenery for additional amenities like the parking areas that extend the ped realm, dedicated bus lanes, etc.

EDIT: I realized the areas for platforms/left turns would make for good tree space inside the travel lanes when not being used. Updated links: www.streetmix.net/alexcecchini/89/olsen-memorial-mwb
http://www.streetmix.net/alexcecchini/9 ... -mwb-remix

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4617
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » March 5th, 2015, 9:30 pm

I like David's proposals, but it lacks things like on-street parking and left turn provisions.
Could the median serve as a left turn queuing area as on Summit Ave.? I know the tracks cause an issue but I wonder if it could be done. Not sure what to do about parking. What kind of redevelopment are we expecting here? I'm expecting mostly housing, not a lot of retail and other things that would require a lot of on-street parking.
Another thought, with the stations on the inside as proposed some buses wouldn't be able to use platforms; I don't think our aBRT buses will have doors on both sides.
I hadn't considered that. :) Maybe a little mini platform could exist on the outside.
I really do like the provision for trees across the 160' expanse, I guess it all depends if we want this as more of a LRT + highway + greenway that may support some redevelopment or if we're willing to sacrifice some greenery for additional amenities like the parking areas that extend the ped realm, dedicated bus lanes, etc.
Yeah, that's exactly the tradeoff I was trying to illustrate. I honestly don't know which is better but I do know we should probably ask the people who live there. :)
EDIT: I realized the areas for platforms/left turns would make for good tree space inside the travel lanes when not being used.
That's definitely better. It still seems too pedestrian-hostile to me. It just doesn't seem great to have to cross over that much asphalt.

User avatar
Andrew_F
Rice Park
Posts: 409
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 10:15 pm
Location: Stevens Square

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Andrew_F » March 6th, 2015, 2:25 am

Forgive me if I'm making a basic mistake here (my experience with street design is minimal), but why do you propose locating your bike lanes or shared lanes between the parking and the sidewalk? With the green buffer already there between the "local ROW" and the "through ROW", having the parking abut the sidewalk seems like the safer condition.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2625
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 6th, 2015, 6:37 am

Couple reasons, and it's certainly a debatable issue for MWBs:
- Since the are doesn't have a door zone buffer, parking along the left reduces the odds of dooring since cars have only a driver on the left side quite often
- the whole slip lane area should be viewed as a psuedo woonerf - car speeds should be low enough that cyclists feel comfortable mixing and pedestrians can cross over to parked cars at will. Putting the parked car against the right curb creates a barrier and may make drivers feel more comfortable driving faster.
- if you're having the slip lanes accessed as right - in right-out within each block (or mixing to a right turn lane on the exit side), you can continue the cycle lane as a separate protected cycle track through the intersection with no vehicle conflict points

Certainly no "right" way to do it, just a preference of mine

acs
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1364
Joined: March 26th, 2014, 8:41 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby acs » March 6th, 2015, 10:30 am

For those who don't remember (which I suspect is almost all of us here), planning to calm traffic along this stretch of Olsen has been in the works since 2000. Even without LRT it was meant to repair the damage done to the North Side's black community when they put the highway in. Why didn't it happen earlier? White Suburban Republicans and a Pawlenty appointed MNDOT chair.

http://www.startribune.com/local/blogs/295346181.html

froggie
Rice Park
Posts: 418
Joined: March 7th, 2014, 6:52 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby froggie » March 6th, 2015, 10:47 am

Alex: a couple minor nitpicks:

- You'll need 13ft "lanes" for each LRT track instead of 12ft. Also, you'll need either 2ft on each side or 2ft in the middle to account for the catenary.
- Given that this is a state highway and a principal arterial, I think the narrowest lane width MnDOT would feasibly accept is 11ft.
- Not sure that a dedicated bus lane is necessary, given that the Route 19 will most likely be restructured due to both the Bottineau line plus Penn aBRT. The bright side of this is that it gives 11 more feet of buffer/planter in those locations where turn lanes aren't needed.

acs
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1364
Joined: March 26th, 2014, 8:41 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby acs » March 6th, 2015, 4:38 pm

Unlocked:

http://finance-commerce.com/2015/03/wes ... t-narrows/

Looks like the west broadway portion of this project was revised to minimize the number of homes needed to be taken. The overall ROW needed was reduced to 142 feet from 172.

Presentation:

http://www.metrocouncil.org/METC/files/ ... 73b1c5.pdf

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6368
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » March 10th, 2015, 7:38 am

The most interesting part of that article is this:
West Broadway is only a two-lane road between 85th Avenue and 93rd Avenue, immediately south of Target Corp.

The two-lane portion of the road is over capacity with more than 13,000 vehicles per day, according to a city report. A projected 20,000 vehicles will travel that portion of the road daily by 2030.
Planners were able to reduce the right of way needed by eliminating right-turn lanes, reducing lane widths, reducing vehicle speed to 35 mph, putting the trails closer to property lines and reducing the width needed for LRT. There are concepts for either two or four lanes total throughout the project area.
As we know, a 3 lane profile can handle traffic volumes in the upper teens. Also, obviously, a 3 lane road would be much more conducive to walk/bike access to transit, would cut down on road noise, etc, etc, etc.

Will anyone in Brooklyn Park demand a 3-lane profile instead of 4-lane? It's pretty safe to say that the projected traffic counts of 20,000 will never happen. There are other N-S arterials in BP that could serve as relievers should Broadway be constrained to one lane each direction (i.e. 169, Zane). Chances are, with LRT down the middle, some drivers will choose to avoid using Broadway, which is also good. They shouldn't be there if they don't need to be.
The county and the project office plan to recommend a roadway design to the Brooklyn Park City Council by the end of April. Feedback from Thursday’s meeting will be compiled and used to refine the design, Baenen said. Another public meeting is scheduled for 6 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. March 19 at the North Hennepin Community College Center for Business Technology, 7411 85th Ave. N. in Brooklyn Park.
Can anyone find those proposed 2-lane and 4-lane sections? I'd love to give that some scrutiny. Maybe even a streets.mn post.

talindsay
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1533
Joined: September 29th, 2012, 10:41 am

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby talindsay » March 10th, 2015, 8:16 am

A three-lane profile is pretty difficult with light rail running in the same ROW. Not impossible, I'm sure, but tricky.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6368
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » March 10th, 2015, 8:20 am

Well you know what I mean: one lane each direction plus intermittent turn lanes. That's probably why the project office calls it a "2 lane" instead of a "3 lane" option. My bad. It obviously would not be your typical 3 lane "road diet" profile.

Even with the 4-lane option, it's pretty crazy/sad they were able to shave 30 feet off the ROW just by, y'know, actually trying to do their jobs instead of "MAXIMUM EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE" that is all too common in road planning.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7752
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » March 10th, 2015, 8:37 am

#iblamejimgrube

froggie
Rice Park
Posts: 418
Joined: March 7th, 2014, 6:52 pm

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby froggie » March 10th, 2015, 11:46 am

#iblamethelegislature
It's pretty safe to say that the projected traffic counts of 20,000 will never happen.
I would not be so convinced to state this. BP has plenty of developable land remaining north of 610, especially along West Broadway. And even with an LRT line, there's plenty of potential for development that would add to existing traffic volumes.

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5989
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby MNdible » March 10th, 2015, 12:25 pm

Without blaming anybody, it seems like it's in part just a natural design progression. You take a first pass at things and you design it to the standards that you'd like to meet. This might mean lane widths that are bigger than are strictly necessary, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're egregious. It might mean generous landscaped medians, etc.

You get an initial design, and you get pushback because of the amount of private takings that it entails, so you compromise on some things and come up with a design that is not perfect but is perhaps more achievable and still functional.

Is this really that shocking? If you were designing a new two way cycle-track, how wide would you make the lanes? 6'x2 = 12'? And if somebody came back and said that there's really only 8' available, what would you do?

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6368
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » March 10th, 2015, 1:23 pm

Will anyone in Brooklyn Park demand a 2-lane profile instead of 4-lane? It's pretty safe to say that the projected traffic counts of 20,000 will never happen. There are other N-S arterials in BP that could serve as relievers should Broadway be constrained to one lane each direction (i.e. 169, Zane). Chances are, with LRT down the middle, some drivers will choose to avoid using Broadway, which is also good. They shouldn't be there if they don't need to be.
The county and the project office plan to recommend a roadway design to the Brooklyn Park City Council by the end of April. Feedback from Thursday’s meeting will be compiled and used to refine the design, Baenen said. Another public meeting is scheduled for 6 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. March 19 at the North Hennepin Community College Center for Business Technology, 7411 85th Ave. N. in Brooklyn Park.
Can anyone find those proposed 2-lane and 4-lane sections? I'd love to give that some scrutiny. Maybe even a streets.mn post.
This meeting should be quite a sight. I think I'm gonna plan on attending. I'm guessing that, unlike some of the SWLRT meetings where people were angry about particular design elements / environmental effects, there will be a larger contingent in BP that are just straight up anti-LRT. It might be beneficial just to have generally pro-LRT people at the meeting, if even just to keep the discussion "on topic" of what to do on Broadway. There's an obvious positive outcome here - as much 2-lane section of road as possible. That goes for ROW impacts, walkability, future development, livability for existing residents, etc. Perhaps it will have to blow up to 4-lane at intersections and whatnot, but if they are even considering a 2-lane profile that means it's feasible in some areas.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7752
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » March 10th, 2015, 1:24 pm

Yeah, I can't imagine any of them will be anti- 5 lane stroad, unfortunately.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 57 guests