Street, Road and Highway Projects

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
UrsusUrbanicus
Nicollet Mall
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby UrsusUrbanicus » September 29th, 2015, 3:18 am

Re: the Dan Patch bridge, another area of concern would involve how the crossing would dump out into Savage. Vernon Avenue (the approach road for the south end of the bridge) currently hits Highway 13 at a T-intersection just east of the railroad overpass. Not only would this generate visibility issues, but it's probably too close to the Quentin Avenue light to allow for another signal (given 13's high traffic volumes during certain times of day).

Curving Vernon to line up with Quentin would create its own set of problems. While there are few (if any) properties that directly front Quentin, a large factory and a residential cul-de-sac depend directly on Quentin for access. Downtown Savage businesses also depend on it secondarily for vehicles coming in from 13 (now that the RIROs between Quentin and Lynn have been closed off). And then there's the matter of that kink at the railroad bridge (an alternating two-way stop because the underpass isn't wide enough for two vehicles!!)

Thus, I'd almost have to assume the connection would necessitate / accelerate an extension of CSAH 27 down the bluff from CSAH 16 to MN 13... and maybe that's the proposal's true endgame. (I did see a reference to this extension in a 2030 comprehensive plan a while back, though I forget whose, and I can't seem to find much anymore via random Googling). ROW acquisition for this could be a serious pain in the butt, though a quick glance at Google Maps suggests a route curving from the current terminus over to(ward) existing Xenwood Avenue might have a chance. (Someone with more actual engineering knowledge than myself would have to opine on whether there'd be sufficient room between the existing buildings just east of Xenwood, vs. whether the county would have to effectuate a full taking for properties on one side or other of the street).

Still problematic in that scenario is frontage-road access and the access between new 27 and existing 13. All parties involved sounded very enthused about the recent creation of continuous frontage-road access through the Savage industrial corridor, and it's hard to see how this could be maintained. Curve 123rd down into 124th, or build 125th through from new 27 to Quentin, to maintain sufficient spacing with an at-grade 27/13 intersection? Then you lose the grade separation at the railroad crossing and disrupt the continuity. Keep the continuity, and you blow traffic flow all to hell and risk a high volume of crashes. Could the solution involve maintaining grade separation on 13 and new 27 and taking some of the property on the north side of 13 for a quasi-interchange via stoplight, aligning at the existing Quentin signal? (For a current example, see CSAH 62 and Eden Prairie Road in the Glen Lake area).

Another question for engineers and legislative process wonks (rather than a random insomniac roadgeek): justification / warrants. I'm sure there's a non-negligible volume of, say, Prior Lake and western Savage residents who work in the Bush Lake area, the Highway 100 corridor through Edina, and similar places at some distance from both 169 and 35W. But would this anticipated volume -- in combination with the resulting VMT reductions on 13, Old Shakopee Road, CSAH 42, and/or I-494 (no more doubling back from the river crossings) -- be sufficient as a justification, whether engineering-wise or politically?

EDIT to address Bloomington's concerns on high traffic near residential neighborhoods (as well as neighborhood access). Would it be feasible to rebuild as a Super-2 between 84th and Old Shakopee Road? Certainly we'd want to limit intersections, possibly even pop in a folded trumpet at 94th/Poplar Bridge and another Glen Lake quasi-interchange at 102nd? Southwood Drive and the south leg of Norman Ridge Drive could almost certainly go, as well as the T-intersection at 95th. Reconfigure the dogleg near 106th into a single 90-degree intersection? Convert the northern leg of Norman Ridge (/ Toledo Road) to an underpass, doing a couple of full or partial takings to preserve RIRO at Norman Ridge and create new RIRO via a short stub road to 91st/Utica? Signalize Northwood Drive and extend it eastward to a new frontage road to be constructed along the western edge of Nord Myr Park, whose other terminus would be Mount Normandale Drive newly grade-separated by underpass? How many Benadryl am I going to have to take to make me drowsy enough to stop this? 8-)

Wedgeguy
Capella Tower
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Wedgeguy » September 29th, 2015, 8:49 am

^^^^^^^ Thank you for crossing the t's and dotting the i's. Thank you for that in depth look at this project. Thanks for the real pros and cons.

mattaudio
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby mattaudio » September 29th, 2015, 8:56 am

I think it's pretty obvious that there's another reason why Savage is making this stink. There's no way it will happen. They'd spend two billion dollars doubling capacity on the 169 and 35W bridges before this ever happens.

So, what is the other reason? The only one I can think of is leverage to get passenger rail under discussion again, but even that seems far fetched (and not the best way to influence their neighbors to the north). What else?

fehler
Rice Park
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby fehler » September 29th, 2015, 9:11 am

Does Savage have much develop-able land left? Its pretty much solid suburb between Hwy 13 and Co42. Maybe they're trying to leverage funds/interest in developing tracts between Hwy 13 and the river?

froggie
Rice Park
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby froggie » September 30th, 2015, 6:28 am

There are a few potential remaining tracts along McColl Dr east of 13. Otherwise everything is pretty much developed or in the process of being developed (with most of that along or south of 42).

I doubt you'll see much between 13 and the river, in part because of wetlands and floodplain issues, and in part because most of what was built north of 13 previously is industrial land with a fair likelihood of soil contamination.

Likewise, you probably won't see County 27 connected to 13 because of impacts to the Savage Fen.

Anondson
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Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Anondson » October 2nd, 2015, 10:38 am

Not sure if there was a dedicated thread, and I rarely have to drive the stretch of 35W that passes the new Stadium and I had an appointment that got me driving past it this morning, but I was noticing progress for the new 94 westbound ramp into downtown Minneapolis. Looks like all the bridge pillars are begun.

Anyone know the open date for this and how soon the 5th ave bridge is converted into a local traffic bridge after that?

HiawathaGuy
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby HiawathaGuy » October 2nd, 2015, 12:57 pm

Not sure if there was a dedicated thread, and I rarely have to drive the stretch of 35W that passes the new Stadium and I had an appointment that got me driving past it this morning, but I was noticing progress for the new 94 westbound ramp into downtown Minneapolis. Looks like all the bridge pillars are begun.

Anyone know the open date for this and how soon the 5th ave bridge is converted into a local traffic bridge after that?
https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=84&start=40

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/funding/ted/ ... tmpls.html
http://www.dot.state.mn.us/metro/projec ... nneapolis/
http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/cip/all/WCMS1P-121854
http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/www/gro ... 141014.pdf

Looks like completion of the new offramp is slated for July 2016.

HiawathaGuy
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby HiawathaGuy » October 13th, 2015, 8:23 am

Transportation chairs see room for compromise
http://finance-commerce.com/2015/10/tra ... ompromise/

I'm cautiously optimistic...

mattaudio
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby mattaudio » October 13th, 2015, 8:24 am

Dibble already compromised last year -- by including road capacity increases.

MNdible
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby MNdible » October 13th, 2015, 9:52 am

I know, right? Because none of his constituents, or the constituents of other DFL held districts, use roads.

HiawathaGuy
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby HiawathaGuy » October 13th, 2015, 9:59 am

I know, right? Because none of his constituents, or the constituents of other DFL held districts, use roads.
-1

While I want to see a truly comprehensive plan move forward, I think it's reasonable to look at ways to appease the GOP without giving up on too many DFL wishes. A transit tax must be part of the mix, but I'm okay with coming up with a plan for funding that uses general funds initially. I think when the DFL has majorities again, they can look at updating things again. But the can needs to stop being kicked down the road. Cars will continue to be driven on our roads for a long while - even if/when fossil fuels run out. Encouraging less driving by implementing a world-class transit system should be a goal, but expecting the vast majority of out state legislators to vote in favor of a non-auto plan is DOA.

I'll be watching to see how this all plays out.

mattaudio
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby mattaudio » October 13th, 2015, 10:15 am

Relevant: An excerpt from David Levinson and Kevin Krizek's new book, The End of Traffic & The Future of Transportation.
http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2015 ... -transport
In an era of flat demand and increasingly efficient supply, America and other developed countries can reinvent roadway space. With the knowledge of ongoing technological change and increasing efficiency of existing resources, the time is now to adopt a strategy of no new roads. While cars move fast, and electrons move faster, roads don’t move at all. They last for hundreds and thousands of years.

David Greene
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby David Greene » October 13th, 2015, 10:21 am

NO WAY we want general fund for transit. It needs a dedicated tax. Having a dedicated tax for highways but not transit is how we got ourselves into the current mess in the first place. General funds to transit does not provide the reliable funding source FTA wants to see.

No transit sales tax bump, no deal.

HiawathaGuy
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby HiawathaGuy » October 13th, 2015, 10:30 am

NO WAY we want general fund for transit. It needs a dedicated tax. Having a dedicated tax for highways but not transit is how we got ourselves into the current mess in the first place. General funds to transit does not provide the reliable funding source FTA wants to see.

No transit sales tax bump, no deal.
I completely agree. I meant using general funds for other road improvements.
The GOP doesn't want any new taxes - and the DFL want a gas tax and a transit tax. I'm okay with a compromise of a transit tax increase and using general fund money (shifting rental car taxes, etc.) to cover road improvements. But I'm completely fine with holding the line and pushing for a transit and gas tax. I just don't know if that's reality in the short session before an election.

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Tiller
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Tiller » October 14th, 2015, 1:49 am

NO WAY we want general fund for transit. It needs a dedicated tax. Having a dedicated tax for highways but not transit is how we got ourselves into the current mess in the first place. General funds to transit does not provide the reliable funding source FTA wants to see.

No transit sales tax bump, no deal.
I completely agree. I meant using general funds for other road improvements.
The GOP doesn't want any new taxes - and the DFL want a gas tax and a transit tax. I'm okay with a compromise of a transit tax increase and using general fund money (shifting rental car taxes, etc.) to cover road improvements. But I'm completely fine with holding the line and pushing for a transit and gas tax. I just don't know if that's reality in the short session before an election.
If anyone really wants to be cynical/devious, deliberately push for using general fund money for road improvements and the sales tax for transit. While automobile use won't be deterred by marginally higher gas prices, in times of budget deficits, we could find some of those mystical "efficiency savings" that GOPers talk about in the [s]road budget[/s] general fund. ;)

And who really thinks there would be movement on this during a pre-election session? As far as I know, MoveMN isn't threatening to try and oust obstructive legislators or anything like that (though maybe they should raise some money and try it).

kirby96
Union Depot
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby kirby96 » October 14th, 2015, 9:43 am

Anyone know what is going on with the upcoming closure of Cedar Lake Parkway @ 394? Signs just say 'Road Closed Oct. 19'...

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby RailBaronYarr » October 14th, 2015, 12:51 pm

I'm not fine with the GOP plan to use general fund money for roads, or dedicating even more sales tax revenue that currently goes to the general fund (car parts, etc) to roads. That will almost guarantee cuts or competition for less funding for other critical things the state funds (health care, etc). It's already bogus that buying a car and gasoline isn't subject to a sales tax that goes to the general fund (adding that in and lowering the overall rate, revenue neutral, would be a huge equity win given how much less low income people spend on buying and fueling cars).

I've yet to see someone really articulate why our metro needs more road capacity. By whatever metric you want to use, we have great car mobility right now. We could add another 300k residents to the metro with our current road network and still punch above our metro's total number of jobs ranking for weighted job accessibility. Before we even get to the discussion of if there are alternatives to the solution of more road capacity (tolling, etc), we need to really question the much-publicized problem.

But I get it. Politics and driving and inertia. It's not popular to stand up on a podium and tell drivers who sit in 10 minutes of 494 traffic every morning that everything is fine we won't expand highways.

abgnac
Block E
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46th Street South repaving

Postby abgnac » October 16th, 2015, 9:29 am

Hennepin County recently announced their intention to repave 46th Street South between Lyndale and Cedar. The county will be holding an event at Field Middle School on Wednesday, October 21 from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. They are also providing an opportunity to submit comments online.

I think this street is an excellent candidate for a 4 to 3 lane conversion. It is awful to drive on because of the constant lane switching required to avoid vehicles waiting to turn. It is a nightmare for pedestrians because there is no separation between the road and the sidewalk, not to mention the dangers of crossing 4 lanes of traffic. A conversion would fix these issues and also free up space that could be used to add protected bike lanes.

Thoughts?

mattaudio
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby mattaudio » October 16th, 2015, 10:08 am

Cool fact: The county will actually be using a citizen/neighborhood-created layout at the upcoming open house.

twincitizen
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby twincitizen » October 16th, 2015, 11:22 am

Matt is probably a greater authority on this than I, but there seems to be little to zero usage of the outer lanes for parking during off-peak hours, on the 4-lane stretch from Cedar to Nicollet. From Nicollet to Lyndale, 46th is already a fairly calm two-lane street.

Given the low/zero usage of that outer lane parking, it seems like a slam dunk to convert 35W to Cedar to 3-lane, with bike lanes. East of Chicago, seems it could even be 2-lane (or is it today?). Lane configuration gets a little ambiguous over there...the dashed white lines seem to disappear.

From roughly 2nd/3rd Ave to Nicollet though (over 35W & approaches), I have no idea how you'd do without 4 lanes there. That stretch actually seems pretty functional today, given how busy it is. It's a shame the bridge wasn't built slightly wider to allow bike lanes or cycletracks (on top of the curbs).


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