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Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 5th, 2022, 3:23 am
by Hero
I hate this project except for the section in Minneapolis. The Met Council should be promoting T.O.D. rather than constructing more surface parking spaces in Robinsdale.
Do you think anyone on the bus tour actually got out of the vehicle and stood in the middle of that 6-lane highway? What an awful place to have to cross and then wait for a train!!!
This stupid line is still planning to send trains up to a corn field just so it can get a mile away from a mostly empty Target office complex- all for $2 billion. Yet, it took me 40 minutes to go down Lake St. on the Route 21 bus, from Uptown to Midtown, last night. The Met Council and Hennepin County seem incapable of making decent transit and are wasting billions on LRT to car-dominated and transit hostile places.
Sometimes it is just faster to walk than take the 21. I find it frustrating that if I want to take the bus home from work it will take me an hour and fifteen minutes to travel 6 miles while my coworker who lives in Savage claims it takes him an hour by bus/rail. Maybe Metro Transit's goal is to have every trip an hour?
The project connects many important destinations in Brooklyn Park to Minneapolis, without having to take 2 buses that take an hour or more. You have North Hennepin Community College, Starlite Shopping Center, Amazon Warehouse, and plenty of residential areas. Yes, it ends in in a cornfield next to Target North, but that area is prime for TOD redevelopment. This project is 100x better than SWLRT, and if it fails due to municipal consent, I'm going to be extremely disappointed.
To your point on the 21, the METRO B Line is coming with dedicated bus lanes. It's not like they are ignoring the city, but we definitely don't have the political will to tunnel in Minneapolis, so we aren't going to get large lrt projects in most of the city.
Sure the 21 is due to be upgraded to the B line. But if Metro Transit was serious about building up the urban core why are they spending 65 million on the B line and 532 million on the Gold line? The A, B, C, D and E lines don't even cost as much combined.
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 5th, 2022, 11:11 am
by thespeedmccool
Well, Metro Transit is not spending $532 million on the Gold Line. In fact, the Met Council is spending a whooping $0 to construct it. 97% of project costs are coming from the FTA and Washington and Ramsey counties.
https://www.metrotransit.org/gold-line-facts
Letting counties manage transit planning comes with its drawbacks, like trains and busses to far-flung suburban malls. However, it's not like we can expect Washington County to just donate money to the Met Council and let them spend it in the core.
Same goes for the Blue Line Extention. Maybe it would make sense to truncate it in Robbinsdale, but Hennepin County has an interest in serving the 100,000~ people along the line outside of downtown. A core-focused transit network when counties plan transit is beyond wishful thinking; its a pipe dream.
We're lucky the Met Council has recognized this problem and is now focusing their efforts on urban aBRT. As far as I'm concerned, absent a seismic shift in transit thinking or regional revenue distribution, this is a pretty good arrangement for transit.
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 5th, 2022, 6:56 pm
by altus4
While we might prefer a more urban core focused transit system, there are regions such as Detroit without real regional transit planning and funding mechanisms, and that works out even worse in my opinion. On balance, I think the more broadly focused regional transit system we have is worth the tradeoffs, even though I agree that we should continue to push for better service for the transit riders in the urban core.
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 5th, 2022, 10:09 pm
by Trademark
I'd be in favor of the regional transit district continuing but also creating the possibility to do what Washington did in passing SB 5528. Allowing areas to have enhanced service zones with increased taxes to fund local service improvements. I could see a district of mpls, st paul, Brooklyn center, Richfield, Columbia heights, and Maplewood forming that are willing to pay higher taxes for better transit in there backyards. While still having the larger region fund projects proportionally as exists today.
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 5th, 2022, 10:25 pm
by DanPatchToget
I'd support that as long as Metro Transit operates the enhanced service. The last thing we need is more opt-out operators.
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 6th, 2022, 11:58 pm
by Trademark
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 7th, 2022, 7:02 am
by Bakken2016
I just don't understand, they are trying to beat a dead horse at this point.
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 7th, 2022, 7:38 am
by BikesOnFilm
Seems like if they can't get the original alignment, their preference is that the project dies in purgatory. Because you'd think it would have been explained to them at this point that freight railroads aren't accountable to anyone.
Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 7th, 2022, 8:28 am
by Anondson
“I hope they will at least ask.”
As if BNSF is saying “NOPE!” randomly and just need to be asked and weren’t actually asked before.
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 7th, 2022, 8:35 am
by BikesOnFilm
Someone should assemble all the articles where the Met Council would say "We're sending them our updated plans, surely negotiations will get going soon" and the exact same public relations person from BNSF would say, in increasingly sarcastic ways, "As we keep telling you, we're not letting you do this."
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 7th, 2022, 8:51 am
by Trademark
If hypothetically the BNSF suddenly changed their opinion. Would yall support the faster LRT to Olsen with a aBRT on Broadway or the current route being advanced?
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 7th, 2022, 9:00 am
by Tcmetro
Personally, I would support the new route. The old route might be faster by maybe a couple of minutes at best.
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 7th, 2022, 9:17 am
by Bakken2016
I would support the new route, there is no need to bypass the heart of North Minneapolis.
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 7th, 2022, 9:24 am
by BikesOnFilm
I wholeheartedly support the new route through Mpls but if it would shut Robbinsdale up, reverting back to the old one near Lowry/North Memorial would be fine with me.
Never going to happen though, so just get it done.
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 7th, 2022, 11:40 am
by alexschief
If I'm not mistaken, didn't the Governor (either Dayton or Walz, I can't remember) actually fly down to Fort Worth to negotiate with BNSF executives directly? This project was delayed for years while the state tried a lot of different avenues of leverage.
I wholeheartedly support the new route through Mpls but if it would shut Robbinsdale up, reverting back to the old one near Lowry/North Memorial would be fine with me.
I'm not sure you can do this without takes.
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 7th, 2022, 12:52 pm
by Trademark
If I'm not mistaken, didn't the Governor (either Dayton or Walz, I can't remember) actually fly down to Fort Worth to negotiate with BNSF executives directly? This project was delayed for years while the state tried a lot of different avenues of leverage.
I wholeheartedly support the new route through Mpls but if it would shut Robbinsdale up, reverting back to the old one near Lowry/North Memorial would be fine with me.
I'm not sure you can do this without takes.
I understand Robbinsdale's perspective in wanting the station on the railroad line. I think it would be an objectively better station and much more walkable to the downtown area, but yeah i don't see how they can't understand that the ship has sailed.
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 7th, 2022, 12:53 pm
by DanPatchToget
If Robbinsdale wants the old alignment so much then they won't mind Canadian Pacific sending some of their 100+ freight car land barges through Robbinsdale's downtown. That's assuming the reason why BNSF isn't allowing the Blue Line on their right-of-way is because of Hennepin County blocking their track connection with CP in Crystal.
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 7th, 2022, 1:35 pm
by SurlyLHT
If I'm not mistaken, didn't the Governor (either Dayton or Walz, I can't remember) actually fly down to Fort Worth to negotiate with BNSF executives directly? This project was delayed for years while the state tried a lot of different avenues of leverage.
I wholeheartedly support the new route through Mpls but if it would shut Robbinsdale up, reverting back to the old one near Lowry/North Memorial would be fine with me.
I'm not sure you can do this without takes.
Cut through HyVee lot and then up 36th to the BNSF tracks, probably would have to take parking and etc off of 36th and maybe take a home or two to get it to a merge point with BNSF
Capture.JPG
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 7th, 2022, 2:49 pm
by DanPatchToget
If I'm not mistaken, didn't the Governor (either Dayton or Walz, I can't remember) actually fly down to Fort Worth to negotiate with BNSF executives directly? This project was delayed for years while the state tried a lot of different avenues of leverage.
I wholeheartedly support the new route through Mpls but if it would shut Robbinsdale up, reverting back to the old one near Lowry/North Memorial would be fine with me.
I'm not sure you can do this without takes.
Cut through HyVee lot and then up 36th to the BNSF tracks, probably would have to take parking and etc off of 36th and maybe take a home or two to get it to a merge point with BNSFCapture.JPG
If BNSF were to have a change of heart then this would probably be the best alignment. Still serves North Minneapolis, satisfies Robbinsdale, and the stations aren't in the middle of Bottineau Blvd.
Re: Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT
Posted: July 10th, 2022, 10:45 pm
by Hero
Well, Metro Transit is not spending $532 million on the Gold Line. In fact, the Met Council is spending a whooping $0 to construct it. 97% of project costs are coming from the FTA and Washington and Ramsey counties.
https://www.metrotransit.org/gold-line-facts
Letting counties manage transit planning comes with its drawbacks, like trains and busses to far-flung suburban malls. However, it's not like we can expect Washington County to just donate money to the Met Council and let them spend it in the core.
Same goes for the Blue Line Extention. Maybe it would make sense to truncate it in Robbinsdale, but Hennepin County has an interest in serving the 100,000~ people along the line outside of downtown. A core-focused transit network when counties plan transit is beyond wishful thinking; its a pipe dream.
We're lucky the Met Council has recognized this problem and is now focusing their efforts on urban aBRT. As far as I'm concerned, absent a seismic shift in transit thinking or regional revenue distribution, this is a pretty good arrangement for transit.
OK so maybe not metro transit but the metro region or state (plus feds) is spending $532 million. There has to be a better way of allocating funds. Maybe roll transit into road construction budgets? If we think of roads as transit then Washington county has twice the lane miles per capita of Minneapolis. An argument for more transit in the core seems more reasonable than building more lane miles.