Nicollet Mall

[woofner]

In a perfect world I'd put the north portal at Washington and the south portal between 13th & Grant, with a station between 4th & 5th, one between 7th & 8th, and one between 11th & 12th. I'd think you could shorten the tunnel so it ran between 5th and 12th and still preserve most of the benefit, so you'd really only need the station between 7th & 8th to be underground. I think there would be a lot of benefit to avoiding an at-grade intersection with 4th, but tunneling under 5th is also presumable more expensive than any other downtown street.

[talindsay]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned IDS' subway station. Rumor has it that the IDS tower was built with a subway station in one of its underground levels, based on a 1970s hope that a subway would be located through the heart of downtown some time in the life of that building. I don't know anything about the feasibility of using it, but obviously a tunnel that could make use of that would simplify vertical circulation in the heart of downtown.

I desperately want to get excited about the possibility of such a thing being integrated into a project; but I'm a pragmatist and I know such a development isn't even within the universe of things that current bureaucrats would even consider in this one. When a downtown tunnel finally *is* built, it will run east-west anyway, not north-south, even though the shorter and more consolidated nature of a north-south connection makes for a better opportunity.

[min-chi-cbus]

I don't know what the current volume of LRT trains is per day downtown, but imagine up to four times that volume in downtown between the "Interchange" and the future inevitable "central station" in DTE!

Where do you get "four times?" We're not going to do anything close to that for many decades, if ever.

four lines routing through the street between the DTE and North Loop stations, depending on where the trains stop for each route. If there was a train headed West and one headed East on the Green Line, and a train headed North and one headed South on the Blue line, theoretically they could all be on 5th St. at the same time.

[Silophant]

Xcel has a substation, high voltage transmission and distribution under Nicollet.

This is probably the biggest barrier to a tunnel under either Nicollet or 5th, since the substation intrudes a bit under the ROW of both of these streets. Here's a view of the excavation they had to make to replace one of the transformers a few years ago.

[Minnekid]

Woofner I feel four stations is far to many for a 4-5 mile stretch on Nicolett [sic]. That would be far too slow, that's why I think subways as a whole on a stretch of Nicolett [sic] can't work. It would have to be all the way down to uptown and when the city is at a larger population.

[Aville_37]

Live out of state but found a website with a link to the presentation at the Guthrie. Very exciting and still undecided about what plan I like best. Definitely leaning towards the plan by James Corner (Crystal Stairs, Skyway Frame/Balcony) but all have things I like:

http://www.nicolletmallproject.com/media

[John]

Went to the presentation and they all have merit with some exciting ideas. My feeling is really anyone of them will do a great job. I'm leaning a little bit towards Tom Leader and his design team as their ideas for revamping the mall take a great deal of consideration into the character and qualities of our city and state. They seem to have the most unique vision.

[David Greene]

I don't know what the current volume of LRT trains is per day downtown, but imagine up to four times that volume in downtown between the "Interchange" and the future inevitable "central station" in DTE!

Where do you get "four times?" We're not going to do anything close to that for many decades, if ever.

four lines routing through the street between the DTE and North Loop stations, depending on where the trains stop for each route. If there was a train headed West and one headed East on the Green Line, and a train headed North and one headed South on the Blue line, theoretically they could all be on 5th St. at the same time.

We're adding one line. At most the traffic will double, not quadruple.

[FISHMANPET]

Official word is that once Bottineu is built, there's no more LRT, because we won't be able to take lanes of traffic for trains anymore. I don't think that will hold forever, but for the next 10 or 20 years (or however far out we're planning things right now) there won't be any more LRT.

[PhilmerPhil]

I attended tonight's event as well. Check the UrbanMSP for some iPhone pics of the concept boards on display.

My thoughts:

The only thing the Daoust Lestage had going for them was that the presenter pronounced "ensemble" and "ambience" as the French intended. Otherwise, their design was nothing special to me, like a student project almost.

James Corner Field Operations of High Line Park fame had my favorite design. They clearly knew what they were doing and had some great ideas, like covering the bottom of skyways with a reflective surface. They are also the only team to legitimately addressed biking. There would be a center two-way bike path in the middle according to their plan. Overall very well done and good urban design.

Tom Leader's team had some interesting ideas as well. Definitely the most unique concept. Can't think of anything else to say about it at this time though.

None of the options took transit off the mall, so we can probably end that discussion.

[PhilmerPhil]

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/n ... ollet.html

Was this one of us? Threatening to bomb the Walgreens on Nicollet Mall if they don't do something with that space?

[David Greene]

They clearly knew what they were doing and had some great ideas, like covering the bottom of skyways with a reflective surface.

Why is that a "great idea?" It strikes me as kitschy and will be tired and dated in just a few months. How will it look after just a few weeks' exposure to the elements? I love the crystal staircase concept, though.

[John]

None of the options took transit off the mall, so we can probably end that discussion.

I would say that was my only disappointment about the presentations. When I start thinking more about the architect who will be chosen, my hunch says James Corner. He probably had the best presentation. But who knows?

[ECtransplant]

Assuming streetcars end up on Nicollet, will there still be buses and taxis running with them on the Mall?

[MNdible]

I see no reason why they would remove them from that scenario.

[Silophant]

I hope not, but I don't think there's been any official word on that subject. I don't actually mind the buses so much, but there's no reason to allow taxis on the mall.

[mullen]

thanks for the presentation updates. the star trib today has nothing. I can't say one concept is vastly better than the other. The Leader proposal seems to be the most brash and forward looking. but as other's have mentioned, how soon does innovative become dated.

[Tom H.]

Re: uniqueness

[min-chi-cbus]

We're adding one line. At most the traffic will double, not quadruple.

1. Hiawatha (Blue)
2. Central (Green)
3. Southwest (Green)
4. Bottineau (Blue)


I realize these are essentially two huge lines, but what we have currently is just half of one line, so 2.0 divided by 0.5 equals 4 times as many lines, with 4 times as many passenger vehicles potentially along the common area of these 4 lines, which I BELIEVE is 5th St. between DTE and "The Interchange". However, I am not 100% sure how the lines will interact with one-another downtown.

[Tom H.]

The line extensions won't double the train traffic through downtown - those trips which already run on the Blue line (or Green line) will simply continue to/from the west on the new extensions.