urbanMSP

My Linden Hillsian parents are actively engaging their CM in support of ADUs. I'm such a proud son.

Planning Commission is discussing ADUs right now. http://minneapolismn.gov/tv/79

It sounds like they took advantage of the lack of opposition and ad libbed a little at the end of the meeting, increasing the maximum height for a detached unit above a garage. There was concern expressed by members of both the public and the planning commission that the draft ordinance may have been written too tightly and would really limit detached units above garages.

Bravo to everyone who attended open houses and/or the meeting tonight. If your city councilor is anyone other than Lisa Bender, please do send a quick email and let them know you support this change. The way things have been going, it seems like this is going to pass City Council with a wide majority.

I can't be the only one who is a little surprised at the total lack of opposition. Perhaps St. Paul and some inner ring suburbs will follow suit. I know of a few inner ring suburbs with plenty of large lots (60-75 ft wide, compared to 40 ft in Minneapolis) and mostly smaller Cape Cods and ramblers with detached garages - textbook perfect situation to add ADUs.

I see the city of Minneapolis population jumping significantly. Or that is at least my hope.

Well, an ADU will cost between 50-75k just to get off the ground. If it's part of a new garage project it could be more. I wouldn't expect a huge jump.

Regarding opposition, I think this is so wonky and insider baseball that it's absolutely flown under the radar of most people. If you're paying attention to this, it's probably because you've been jonesing for ADU's real hard -- so I don't think the public response is either representative or surprising.

Wait until a few people are surprised that their neighbors are allowed to build a honking ADU that shades their garden, and then you'll hear some opposition.

Well, an ADU will cost between 50-75k just to get off the ground. If it's part of a new garage project it could be more. I wouldn't expect a huge jump.

What would the proforma look like for an ADU?

a 75K construction loan would be ~$750/month for principal and interest. Assume water/trash/gas/electric/heat at $200 per month. Are there any permits/fees required by the city? Probably - assume $50 per month. Additional property tax liability: $50/month. Maintenance expenses: $100/month.

That puts expenses at $1150/month.

Costs that can't be quantified: less privacy, more noise, smaller yard/open space, shading the neighbors garden = social cost. Playing landlord, learning the law. Less free time. Screening tenants. Vacancies between tenants. Tenants that have boyfriends/girlfriends coming at all hours of the night. Additional worry about the economy and the rental market.

Average rent in the city is $1200, correct?
I really like the idea, but if people start building ADUs, it won't be because it makes economic sense - IMO.

In a nice enough neighborhood, I assume you could charge even more (since luxury places in large buildings go for much higher than this) and sell the added benefit of a great neighborhood and more privacy. It's possible you could make enough profit off this to lower your own mortgage by a decent amount.

Of course, some of these will have no bearing on the rental market: They'll be aimed at housing children who've reached young adult age and want more privacy as they go to school and get their start, elderly parents who you want nearby, etc.

Also, $1200 is for a 2 bedroom, right? I'm guessing there won't be many ADUs that are 2 bedroom, at least not in the scenario where we'll building new structures.

But I've watched enough Income Property on HGTV to know there's more than one way to skin that cat.

If I were to build an ADU on top of a new garage, the new garage portion is for my personal use. So a good portion of those costs aren't directly tied to the ADU itself. And if I was able to get enough in rent to cover the cost of the new garage: "Sweet! Free* garage!"

We're going to be building a new garage probably within five years. I've thought seriously about doing an ADU for several reasons:

- It seems like an ADU is easier to do on a new garage than it would be on an existing structure; this is the time to do it
- Mom and Dad are getting older and will probably move out of their house within a decade
- It could be used for other purposes in the interim (office, for example, since we have no space for that in the house)
- Theoretically, it should increase the value of the property (though that's not our primary motivation)

Mainly we'd be building the ADU for us and/or family, not to rent out to someone.

I could see the scenario where Mom and Dad cash out of their existing house and use some of the money to construct an ADU on my lot. When they pass away, I can rent it out to someone if I'd like, or simply turn it into an office or workout room or something. That makes sense for all parties. My parents get fixed living expenses and a caregiver close by. I get a substantial improvement to my property that can generate income down the line.

I wonder if that kind of an arrangement would work for unrelated people, too - minus the caretaker element of course. If an aging couple that wanted to stay in the city approached me with an offer to pay for the building of an ADU on my lot...I'd think about it.

The over the garage thing could be problematic for old people, who don't like stairs.

Are people assuming pedestrian access to these units are through the alley? Or through a path from the sidewalk at the front of the house?

The over the garage thing could be problematic for old people, who don't like stairs.

I've thought about that. I'm hoping some creative architect has a solution. Is there any rule that says the ADU can't be *next to* the garage?

Are people assuming pedestrian access to these units are through the alley? Or through a path from the sidewalk at the front of the house?

In our case we already have a path from the sidewalk but alley access would be easy too. Honestly, we walk out our alley more than we do the front door, simply because we generally want to head southwest toward Lake & Hennepin.

Honestly, we walk out our alley more than we do the front door, simply because we generally want to head southwest toward Lake & Hennepin.

That may work in the summer, but in the winter, alleys can be a real mess. Again, old people don't like ice and puddles.

I may be wrong but I don't see the ADU-above-the-new-detached-garage is going to be common. One of the biggest expenses is running new plumbing and sewer connections, and in Minneapolis those main sewer lines are usually in the street. In a worst-case scenario you'll be trenching 100 feet or more to get to the main, or maybe only 50 feet to tie into the existing house's plumbing. Electric is relatively easy though.

If it's possible a better solution is going with a new attached garage. Usually more difficult with older homes though. I put an addition on my former home with a 2-car garage, new bath and mud room. I left the garage roof flat to allow for a future addition (and it made a great sun deck to boot!). In a case like that it would be a no-brainer to add an ADU.

As far as a side-by-side, you'll be dealing with increased costs for the foundation. Plus, in some rare cases, you'll be up against the 35% impervious lot coverage rule.

So it's really going to be a case-by-case situation as to how practical a new ADU will be.

If it's possible a better solution is going with a new attached garage. Usually more difficult with older homes though.

Yeah, we really have no place to put an attached garage. We're practically up against the property line on both sides and I don't like the idea of running a long driveway from the alley through the back yard to something behind the house.

Plumbing and sewer are definitely the things I've been concerned about. Plumbing seems a lot easier than sewer. The current garage has electricity but would likely need upgrading for a full ADU. One thing we want to do is put solar panels on the new garage to charge the new electric car.

As for stairs, I'm guessing it's not allowed by code but a simple electric lift system seems like a pretty easy thing to do.

Another possibility is to dig down for car storage but that seems like it would be super expensive. The ventilation equipment alone would cost a pretty penny. Still, I've heard of a couple of houses that have done that, converting their basements to garages, because their lot is not large enough for a garage.

I'll agree that the opposition seems completely absent because this thing has flown mostly under the radar. The few articles in the PP/Strib have the typical complaints come out in the comment sections, and one late poster in my suggestion piece on streets.mn hated the whole idea and said many friends felt the same. Even my 29 year old buddy who lives at 58th/Emerson with no kids wasn't pleased about the idea, simply saying "I dunno, I guess I just feel like a neighborhood like that is supposed to be single family." MNdible is right that the first time someone tries to build an above-garage ADU that's taller than current garage code would allow, with people entering/exiting and potentially looking out a side window to their back yard (gasp!), we'll hear complaints.

On the flip side, this process has been pretty wide open. Plenty of public hearings in all parts of the city, a decent number of articles to catch people's attention, etc. If the commenters are so vehemently against, I'm surprised they didn't fill out an online form or attend a single meeting. 92% of respondents support, and last night not a single voice spoke in opposition. Besides, as many have pointed out, the garage ADU may not be as common as a basement or attic unit. I suspect those will be used more often by family members or as a private suite for guests, whereas the garage-style ones will be more for the folks looking to rent it out.

Re: cost/profit, it's a tough call. I'm unsure on the costs of tying into the sewer lines, but folks in other cities clearly make these work and rent them out. I would think that if you're already looking to replace your aging garage, this is an opportunity to use the 15-20k you'd already spend to justify going the extra 60k. Some may just opt for a small 1 car garage with some living space on the main level and small BR on the upper to rent out instead of a full 2 car garage as well. It also depends on your age - if your under 30 like me and plan on staying for a while, this could be a major revenue generator in the long-term, and a possible retirement space while you rent out the larger (more lucrative) home.

Last thought. The ad libbing at the end was encouraging - there were some challenges with the 18' height limit and rules on half story/800 sqft as it were and it was nice to see the whole commission really want to push this. But I think they need to be very specific in what ways they allow for height/bulk to make it work within the 676 max footprint. Also, the city council will still be the biggest hurdle, so a pragmatic first step would be wise, with long-term loosening of the rules as people become more comfortable with them (I think Portland did this).

As part of our garage remodel, connecting to sewer (which must be done at the mainline, not the house) and water was just shy of 10k and put a 7' deep 120ft trench through the yard. It involved a very large backhoe and destruction of most landscaping.

^Yikes! Add in a $1k Met Council SAC fee and that's a tough pill to swallow. This is the type of thing I'm wondering if the city has thought through for changing some requirements (though I'm not sure tying into the main unit's line would be a whole lot cheaper).