Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[mattaudio]

SW Transit will continue express bus service and I'm sure there will be no problem filling up those parking spaces for the low price of free, even without LRT.

[min-chi-cbus]

Can there be an efficient shuttle at the park 'n ride?

[David Greene]

Mpls doesn't need to consent to deferring Penn.

Why is that? It seems like a pretty major change to the plan. Is it simply because they promise to build it later?

[David Greene]

If they end at Town Center, where do people driving to the LRT park? SW Station and use a shuttle bus? Cutting Mitchell is obvious because it's easy to drive the additional mile to the SW Station P&R. Cutting SW Station seems like it would lose a lot more ridership. At some point it just because easier to drive to your destination. But maybe the cost savings is worth the loss of 1,200 rides. It it's only 1,200 then I would say it's worth it.

[Mdcastle]

As far as "where will people park" It looks like they plan to expand the structured parking at SW if they don't extend it to Mitchell, and build structured parking at Golden Triangle if Mitchell and Southwest aren't built.

As a driver, whether I'd have to drive to Mitchell or to Golden Triangle is a lot less than a factor than the hassle and expense of driving a car to and into downtown. It would likely even be less overall trip time. And I'm not going to park, then wait for a shuttle bus, then get off the bus and wait for a train. If you're going to get on a bus, it makes sense just to take an express bus from SW Station to downtown.

[MNdible]

Reading through the different articles and the responses from public officials, it seems pretty clear that Eden Prairie is willing to give up Mitchell and SW but not EP Town Center; and that Minneapolis would give up Penn but not Royalston (and the savings for not building 21st are so minimal that it doesn't make sense to defer it). So, I'd guess that that's the basic contour of the deal (along with reducing landscaping and other minor tweaks).

I suspect that the budget numbers already include the contingency for those items; otherwise, there'd be some real savings there as well.

[David Greene]

Reading through the different articles and the responses from public officials, it seems pretty clear that Eden Prairie is willing to give up Mitchell and SW but not EP Town Center; and that Minneapolis would give up Penn but not Royalston (and the savings for not building 21st are so minimal that it doesn't make sense to defer it). So, I'd guess that that's the basic contour of the deal (along with reducing landscaping and other minor tweaks).

This seems like a reasonable way forward. I definitely want that Penn station built ASAP after opening though. I would think they could squeeze a couple of trainsets out and reduce the OMF size too. Like RBY, I'm puzzled that ending at Town Center doesn't reduce the number of trainsets but we can cut seven (seven!) vehicles if we ended at Golden Triangle.

I suspect that the budget numbers already include the contingency for those items; otherwise, there'd be some real savings there as well.

They do, according to the handout.

[RailBaronYarr]

Mpls doesn't need to consent to deferring Penn.

Why is that? It seems like a pretty major change to the plan. Is it simply because they promise to build it later?

I guess I can't say for sure. I would assume roughing in the station is seen as good faith to do it eventually? Maybe there would need to be an agreement on when they'd do it by to not require updated consent, but that in itself seems like a formal "consent" agreement.

As to driving/parking at Golden Triangle, I agree that for those who would drive to SWLRT @ SW Station for a non-downtown destination, getting to Golden Triangle (and dealing with the backup at 5/212/494 then whatever slowdown due to 212/62 junction) might just mean it's worth it to keep on driving. I wonder if there's a reasonable local route bus that could be run to grab some of the folks left behind from SW Station to EP Town Center? Run along Technology Dr from Wallace Rd, make a stop at SW station, make a right at Prairie Center Dr, left at Singletree then left on Eden Rd. 2.6 miles, 1-2 small buses could do this with pretty decent headways.

[twincitizen]

There is just so.much.track between Golden Triangle and EP Center. So much. This is an incredibly long rail line to build all in one bite.

There was some talk in another article about not getting federal match for the things that get left out. Like if you nickle and dime the ped amenities, landscaping, art, etc. - you will never see a 50% match on getting those items back.

HOWEVER, if you simply cut off the end of the line - that you can apply for at the federal level again. The EP segment beyond Golden Triangle is over $250MM after all, so it would be "New Starts" rather than "Small Starts". LRT extensions go through this process in other cities all the time. We shouldn't fear building this line in segments. Especially with no sales tax increase for transit, getting the budget down on Southwest is the responsible thing to do. Let's build this to Golden Triangle and move on to Bottineau as soon as possible. That is the right thing to do for building out this LRT system in Hennepin County.

We can always come back and do the rest of this line later, while improving bus service in the corridor in the interim. Existing express service was never going to be cut anyways, and now there won't be any reason to. In the near term, Eden Prairie can operate a bunch of increased local service, while adding more reverse commute express trips to EP Center, SW Station, etc.

[acs]

The SDEIS is out too:

http://www.journalmpls.com/news/sw-lrt- ... s-released

[Mdcastle]

What about
1) Cut line back to Golden Triangle
2) In the future run line out to the major jobs + population concentration in downtown Chanhassen.

[Anondson]

I was thinking that too. Running an expansion out to Chanhassen would connect to a CWADS too. Give them time to "urbanize" the node in preparation a bit.

[acs]

Carver Doesn't contribute to the CTIB though, so I wouldn't support building it out there unless they covered the 30% themselves.

[mattaudio]

I'd rather see future extensions to Chaska and Shakopee, nodes significantly greater than Chanhassen and two of our seven county seats. Beyond the area of Flying Cloud / 101, it could split into two single-track lines with halved frequencies.

[twincitizen]

Those counties won't pay for it, especially not Carver. Borderline off-topic at this point considering we haven't built anything yet.

[mattaudio]

4 mi from Chaska to 101 Junction, 8.5 mi to Mitchell Rd. Dedicated ROW already exists. Extremely few grade crossings. 11 minutes at an average speed of 45 MPH. With three stations at a minute dwell/accel time each, 14 minutes. Easy. Much better than serving park & rides.

[HiawathaGuy]

4 mi from Chaska to 101 Junction, 8.5 mi to Mitchell Rd. Dedicated ROW already exists. Extremely few grade crossings. 11 minutes at an average speed of 45 MPH. With three stations at a minute dwell/accel time each, 14 minutes. Easy. Much better than serving park & rides.

FWIW, if it's dedicated ROW and wouldn't cross many at-grade intersections, I believe this would go 55 MPH. Like between the Blue Line Franklin Ave Station and the bridge ascend of the Hiawatha Ave crossing, or underground at the airport.

I also agree that extending via 212/Minnesota River Bluffs LRT Regional Trail to Chaska makes perfect sense in the future.

[Silophant]

What does "Reduce Park and Ride to 2020" mean? Shrink them to fit the estimated 2020 usage instead of the estimated 2050 or whenever usage? Those at least seem like no-brainers.

[MNdible]

Yes, as long as the reduced capacities don't preclude future expansion.

I know, for example, that at Foley Blvd P&R, they took an option to reduce the construction cost by eliminating the structural capacity to add future levels to the structure.

[froggie]

A long time ago, I conceptualized running Southwest LRT to Chaska. But even with additional stations, you're going to have several segments of lengthy track in between stations (as much as 2.25 miles)...the same argument some are using here in suggesting cutting the line to Golden Triangle.

In recent weeks, though, I've begun reconsidering my LRT ideas, especially after creating the Hennepin County density maps. I'm going to wait until I can create similar maps for the other six core counties, though, before I pursue any further major revision.