The Eclipse

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
Archiapolis
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 768
Joined: November 2nd, 2012, 8:59 am

Re: The Eclipse

Postby Archiapolis » February 28th, 2014, 1:28 pm

How much distance will be between the 26-story Nic on Fifth and the 30-story 4Marq? Doesn't seem like it'll be much more than 40 feet, though admittedly they don't directly face each other like Eclipse would.
Haven't looked at 4Marq so I don't know. You say that they don't "face" each other...what about windows? Orientation to the sun? I'll take a look.

Also, I asked if THIS CITY is ready for this kind of density/proximity - I'm still trying to form an opinion on the proximity but 40' with windows/unit fronts seems close. The only thing that I can think of in terms of a residential analog is the recent rehab of Soo Line but even that seems like more than 40'...

David Greene
IDS Center
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Re: The Eclipse

Postby David Greene » February 28th, 2014, 2:02 pm

I agree with most of this post - mark it down.
In the end I think we generally all want the same thing - a livable, sustainable city. I would even include so-called "opponents" in that camp.
Now, as for you removing context from my post regarding "demanding better transit...and job centers outside the core", to that I say, "Well played; a good example of rhetorical aikido."
=^]

You probably know that I meant that we need better transit IN GENERAL, not specifically to serve reverse commutes from the city to those centers.
Actually, I didn't mean to remove important context so if I did that was a mistake. I also wasn't referring specifically to SWLRT. Bottineau obviously also fits the bill as does express bus service if it supported reverse commuting (which it really doesn't now).

My point was not to make some kind of "gotcha" moment but to illustrate that questions of transportation are complicated and simple statements like, "it doesn't serve the city," or, "there's too much parking," aren't helpful because they are so easy to refute. I try to apply that standard to everyone in a conversation, including myself. Due to time pressures and limited typing ability, we generally have to condense our views down and abstract the complications a bit but I always try to keep those complications in mind.

If you'll head over the SWLRT thread you'll see a post I just mode about how I could support some of the other options people have presented. In that project I am not wedded to 3A as such but rather to the principles of equity and access. I'm also wedded to practicality and getting things done. If 3A as it is currently isn't doable then obviously we'll have to do something else. I am in fact quite open to that if it comes to it. We're far from there, however.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
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Re: The Eclipse

Postby RailBaronYarr » February 28th, 2014, 3:09 pm

For reference, a 60' right of way is considered a "neighborhood connector" by the city of Mpls: 12' pedestrian zone (with planted boulevard), 7' parallel parking lane, 11' drive lane, 11' drive lane, 7' parallel parking lane, 12' pedestrian zone.
And yet there are far smaller public spaces that are extremely pleasant to be in with many stories of buildings rising on either side: http://www.andrewalexanderprice.com/images/blog25-9.jpg http://goo.gl/maps/MpEu7

Archiapolis
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 768
Joined: November 2nd, 2012, 8:59 am

Re: The Eclipse

Postby Archiapolis » February 28th, 2014, 3:52 pm

For reference, a 60' right of way is considered a "neighborhood connector" by the city of Mpls: 12' pedestrian zone (with planted boulevard), 7' parallel parking lane, 11' drive lane, 11' drive lane, 7' parallel parking lane, 12' pedestrian zone.
And yet there are far smaller public spaces that are extremely pleasant to be in with many stories of buildings rising on either side: http://www.andrewalexanderprice.com/images/blog25-9.jpg http://goo.gl/maps/MpEu7
I'm trying not to take offense...are you serious with this link? I have a master's degree in architecture for whatever that is worth - I am aware that small spaces exist in the world that are attractive.

I gave an example of a public right of way that typically separates residential buildings in this city. You plucked an image of a mews in a European city off of the internet.

You aren't seriously suggesting that the space between these two buildings, elevated 20+ feet off of the ground on a private building atop a parking deck in the shadow of a 13 story building will look ANYTHING like the image that you have put forward are you?

holmstar
Nicollet Mall
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Re: The Eclipse

Postby holmstar » February 28th, 2014, 4:20 pm

I don't think anyone was suggesting building a European street on the roof, the point was that narrow spaces *can* be inviting. It's up to designers/architects to make that happen.

spearson
Landmark Center
Posts: 291
Joined: July 9th, 2012, 2:29 pm

Re: The Eclipse

Postby spearson » February 28th, 2014, 4:57 pm

I still think that these two buildings are too close together, +/- 40'...that is packing the density on this one...is this city ready for residential buildings this tall that are this close together?
Granted they aren't this tall, but some of the buildings are packed tightly together in the north loop:

https://www.google.com/maps?ll=44.98621 ... ,,0,-10.74

John
Capella Tower
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Joined: May 31st, 2012, 2:06 pm

Re: The Eclipse

Postby John » February 28th, 2014, 6:54 pm

One thing to point out is this is a project in two phases with the south (and shorter) tower going up first. What 's interesting to me is how the residents of phase one will react when they are informed that phase two is going to be built. How will condo owners in phase one react when quite a few of them realize they will lose their views and live 40 feet across from their neighbors in phase two? It will cause an uproar I'm sure. And how is phase two going to sell those condos with no view? People with a $400,000 budget have many options. I mean, the developer can't be that stupid. That makes me optimistic the massing of phase two ( if built) will be modified significantly when the time comes.

seanrichardryan
IDS Center
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Location: Merriam Park, St. Paul

Re: The Eclipse

Postby seanrichardryan » February 28th, 2014, 8:06 pm

Okay folks, stop the hand wringing. If you look at the submitted plans, only one unit on each floor in the south tower will directly face the north tower. Even those units will have sightlines through the gap if the viewer turns themselves 30 degrees. The remaining windows are secondary views for units that face Hennepin or North towards the river.

Crisis averted!

Image
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
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Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: The Eclipse

Postby RailBaronYarr » February 28th, 2014, 10:39 pm

I'm trying not to take offense...are you serious with this link? I have a master's degree in architecture for whatever that is worth - I am aware that small spaces exist in the world that are attractive.

I gave an example of a public right of way that typically separates residential buildings in this city. You plucked an image of a mews in a European city off of the internet.

You aren't seriously suggesting that the space between these two buildings, elevated 20+ feet off of the ground on a private building atop a parking deck in the shadow of a 13 story building will look ANYTHING like the image that you have put forward are you?
Of course I'm not stating that the space on top of the deck will be the same as a retail-fronted laneway in Australia. However, if my comparison was inapt because it wasn't 20' off the ground on a private building atop a parking deck, why wouldn't yours be for giving an example of a typical public right of way in our city (which we assume is normal and could easily be questioned) with all sorts of irrelevant dimensions (such as driving and parking lanes, which I assume won't be present on this courtyard)? As holmstar points out, it's up to the architects and designers to make it inviting, maybe like common courtyards surrounded by 6-8 story buildings. And as seanrichardryan points out, light and views won't be hard to come by for the units in the northern tower.

Ultimately, I don't care since the developer is only screwing themselves with the design if no one would want the southern facing units.

Archiapolis
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 768
Joined: November 2nd, 2012, 8:59 am

Re: The Eclipse

Postby Archiapolis » March 3rd, 2014, 8:50 am

One thing to point out is this is a project in two phases with the south (and shorter) tower going up first. What 's interesting to me is how the residents of phase one will react when they are informed that phase two is going to be built. How will condo owners in phase one react when quite a few of them realize they will lose their views and live 40 feet across from their neighbors in phase two? It will cause an uproar I'm sure. And how is phase two going to sell those condos with no view? People with a $400,000 budget have many options. I mean, the developer can't be that stupid. That makes me optimistic the massing of phase two ( if built) will be modified significantly when the time comes.
Exactly.

mnmike
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: The Eclipse

Postby mnmike » March 3rd, 2014, 9:00 am

Ummm...really? I am pretty sure all marketing for the project will show both phases, so there won't be a "surprise, we are building another tower!!". Just as we know, all involved will know it is intended to have 2 phases.

Archiapolis
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 768
Joined: November 2nd, 2012, 8:59 am

Re: The Eclipse

Postby Archiapolis » March 3rd, 2014, 9:03 am

Okay folks, stop the hand wringing. If you look at the submitted plans, only one unit on each floor in the south tower will directly face the north tower. Even those units will have sightlines through the gap if the viewer turns themselves 30 degrees. The remaining windows are secondary views for units that face Hennepin or North towards the river.

Crisis averted!

Image
You do realize that as modeled/ rendered, these facades are "all glass" and that the directions in which you are NOT drawing arrows, are actually possible/likely views out of bedrooms and corner living rooms, etc. Imagine you are the realtor walking someone through the building and they say, "Wow, that building is pretty close - kind of uncomfortable with that." In your scenario the response should be, "Yeah, but if you just turn 30 degrees, you can see beyond." Likely response, "Can I see that price tag again?"

I am illustrating why there is a perception that these buildings are "hulking" - they are very deep (relative to established depths governed by how deep natural light will penetrate) and the developers is pushing density up by pushing these buildings close together. while maintaining a narrow slot (at this scale) for light and air. in short, he is trying to have his cake and eat it too in terms of entitlement with the city and his pro forma. It's okay; it's his property. It doesn't mean that everyone is going to agree that should be allowed. It is perfectly acceptable to have different opinions on it but there is a reason that there isn't much precedent for such an arrangement in this market.

Archiapolis
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 768
Joined: November 2nd, 2012, 8:59 am

Re: The Eclipse

Postby Archiapolis » March 3rd, 2014, 9:05 am

Ummm...really? I am pretty sure all marketing for the project will show both phases, so there won't be a "surprise, we are building another tower!!". Just as we know, all involved will know it is intended to have 2 phases.
Sorry, take the "surprise!" factor out because I don't think there is a deception there. The point is, it is definitely NOT going to be pointed out by a realtor to a potential buyer that the gap is only 40' and 40' will be spitshined to sound like a vast open space, when in fact it is not.

mnmike
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: The Eclipse

Postby mnmike » March 3rd, 2014, 9:11 am

Hmmm, well actually, I just happen to be a Realtor...and I certainly make sure my clients are aware of everything like this. You don't get more clients in this business by leaving a bad taste in people's mouths. Also, it isn't like this is the first phased development around. I really don't think that will be an issue. I am sure there will be an in house sales center with models of the finished product.

Archiapolis
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 768
Joined: November 2nd, 2012, 8:59 am

Re: The Eclipse

Postby Archiapolis » March 3rd, 2014, 9:25 am

I'm trying not to take offense...are you serious with this link? I have a master's degree in architecture for whatever that is worth - I am aware that small spaces exist in the world that are attractive.

I gave an example of a public right of way that typically separates residential buildings in this city. You plucked an image of a mews in a European city off of the internet.

You aren't seriously suggesting that the space between these two buildings, elevated 20+ feet off of the ground on a private building atop a parking deck in the shadow of a 13 story building will look ANYTHING like the image that you have put forward are you?
Of course I'm not stating that the space on top of the deck will be the same as a retail-fronted laneway in Australia. However, if my comparison was inapt because it wasn't 20' off the ground on a private building atop a parking deck, why wouldn't yours be for giving an example of a typical public right of way in our city (which we assume is normal and could easily be questioned) with all sorts of irrelevant dimensions (such as driving and parking lanes, which I assume won't be present on this courtyard)? As holmstar points out, it's up to the architects and designers to make it inviting, maybe like common courtyards surrounded by 6-8 story buildings. And as seanrichardryan points out, light and views won't be hard to come by for the units in the northern tower.

Ultimately, I don't care since the developer is only screwing themselves with the design if no one would want the southern facing units.
My example was meant to give a sense of the scale, not to illustrate the "look/feel" of what 60' represents.

Anyone can walk down a "neighborhood connector" and get a feel for what that 60' is like relative to tall buildings on either side forming an urban canyon. I wish that I could say the same for the beautiful space that you offered as an example - nothing like that space exists in this city and very few in this country and probably NONE that are new construction and not long established historical spaces. It is an "appeal to emotion" fallacy to offer an image like the one you provided and say that the space in question will look anything like your example.

I acquiesce the point that "tight" spaces can be attractive and while your example illustrates that point, there are important distinctions to be made.

As for the courtyards example, in my experience in this city 60' is very standard for a courtyard building (which is why I offered the 60' right of way as an example). 60' with 6 stories of height is a completely different experience to 40' and 13 stories of height but that should go without saying.

Last point, I'd be very interested to see the space that you offered as an example on google earth. I'd wager that this space is on the "short leg" of a street grid and that the adjacent buildings were no taller than 4 stories. This is important spatially if there is a short zone of "compression" (like your image), which QUICKLY opens up again on either side. In your example, the perception that light, air and pedestrian activity are within very close proximity is of major importance. On the roof of a second story parking deck, with a 13' story building looming over you and 150' of building forming the canyon wall beside you is a very bad experience in my view.

With the density occurring in this city and infill happening quickly, I'd rather wait for a better proposal for this site.

Cheers for engaging in the philosophical argument.

Archiapolis
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 768
Joined: November 2nd, 2012, 8:59 am

Re: The Eclipse

Postby Archiapolis » March 3rd, 2014, 9:29 am

Hmmm, well actually, I just happen to be a Realtor...and I certainly make sure my clients are aware of everything like this. You don't get more clients in this business by leaving a bad taste in people's mouths. Also, it isn't like this is the first phased development around. I really don't think that will be an issue. I am sure there will be an in house sales center with models of the finished product.
That sounded bad - I apologize. I didn't mean to disparage the integrity of realtors. Obviously the developer would LIKE the realtors to downplay the proximity/blocked view/etc but that doesn't mean it will happen. My point is that the developer would, without doubt, be downplaying Phase 2 when trying to sell Phase 1 units and that in itself is a disingenuous gesture.

go4guy
Foshay Tower
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Re: The Eclipse

Postby go4guy » March 3rd, 2014, 9:33 am

Are people really complaining about the 40 feet? This is an urban development. There are 40 ft spaces between houses in the suburbs! With windows facing eachother. Do none of those homes sell? And that is in the suburbs, not DOWNTOWN! 40 foot space for a few windows is not that big of a deal. Plus, nobody is forcing anyone to buy those units. And I am willing to bet those units will be a bit cheaper than those with complete non-obstructed views.

aeisenberg
Landmark Center
Posts: 269
Joined: June 12th, 2012, 7:45 pm

Re: The Eclipse

Postby aeisenberg » March 3rd, 2014, 9:43 am

Hmmm, well actually, I just happen to be a Realtor...and I certainly make sure my clients are aware of everything like this. You don't get more clients in this business by leaving a bad taste in people's mouths. Also, it isn't like this is the first phased development around. I really don't think that will be an issue. I am sure there will be an in house sales center with models of the finished product.
That sounded bad - I apologize. I didn't mean to disparage the integrity of realtors. Obviously the developer would LIKE the realtors to downplay the proximity/blocked view/etc but that doesn't mean it will happen. My point is that the developer would, without doubt, be downplaying Phase 2 when trying to sell Phase 1 units and that in itself is a disingenuous gesture.
That's right. And don't forget to capitalize the R in Realtor, bitch. (Edit: Really? That's not *'d out?)

But seriously, almost all buyers have their own agent, and any responsible buyers agent will point out the flaws. I'd go so far as to say it's my #1 job during showings. Like Mike said, you don't get referrals and repeat clients by duping people.

That said, most houses in Minneapolis have far, far less than 40' from window to window. Consider that most lots are only 48' wide to begin with, so windows between houses on many of those lots are going to have less than 20, 15, 10 feet.
Last edited by aeisenberg on March 3rd, 2014, 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Aaron Eisenberg / Realtor, Keller Williams Integrity
612.568.5828 / [email protected] / 1350 Lagoon Ave #900
http://www.agentaaron.com

go4guy
Foshay Tower
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Re: The Eclipse

Postby go4guy » March 3rd, 2014, 10:18 am

There are plenty of examples in North Loop, Mill District, and even 222 that have views of other buildings roughly 40 feet away. And a lot of those views are full views and not just partial views were you can turn your head a little and have a great view.

5th Ave Guy
Landmark Center
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Location: North Loop

Re: The Eclipse

Postby 5th Ave Guy » March 3rd, 2014, 10:28 am

Very surprised this thread really went down that path. The 2nd phase is clearly advertised as happening. Some units will have a view, some won't and they'll be priced accordingly. The interior units at Bridgewater were certainly less expensive than the exterior park / city view units. Some buyers will jump at the chance to pay less for a unit with no view.


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