Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[mister.shoes]

If co-location happens—and I suspect it will—my vote would be for the LRT in a shallow tunnel. Elevating the trail would just be odd and the deep tunnel seems excessive. But I am no expert

[orangevening]

If co-location happens—and I suspect it will—my vote would be for the LRT in a shallow tunnel. Elevating the trail would just be odd and the deep tunnel seems excessive. But I am no expert

So, would the trail or the freight line go over the tunnel? For some reason that seems awkward either way.

[UptownSport]

Co location on the bike path????
or?

[mulad]

If co-location happens—and I suspect it will—my vote would be for the LRT in a shallow tunnel. Elevating the trail would just be odd and the deep tunnel seems excessive. But I am no expert

So, would the trail or the freight line go over the tunnel? For some reason that seems awkward either way.

An example is shown on page 15 of this document, where they put a twin-portal shallow tunnel directly underneath the freight line: http://www.stlouispark.org/webfiles/fil ... 281%29.pdf

But I think it's important to think of how the interim construction process would work too, not just the end product -- if the LRT tunnel is built directly under the existing tracks, then the freight line would likely be taken out of commission for a period of months. Temporary tracks could be built on the current bike path, and then the cyclists need to have a detour. A bored tunnel would alleviate those problems, but probably wouldn't eliminate them.

There are some similar problems with relocation, of course.

[woofner]

There are a lot of people in St Louis Park who would benefit from relocation, which would do a much better job of grade-separating the existing line in the neighborhoods it passes through. As usual, the opponents are much more vocal than the proponents, but they're there. Unless the cost difference is huge, I expect the plan will stick with relocation. Even with the high number of takings involved, I can't imagine the relocation costs being that much higher than colocation with grade-separation of one of the elements (without which Minneapolis likely won't consent).

[mister.shoes]

I didn't think about the construction logistics. That's someone else's problem Good points, mulad. Thanks.

Anyway, to elaborate on why I would pick the shallow tunnel (and do so at a keyboard instead of on my phone): On pages 16 and 17 of that aforelinked document, it shows the rough extents of construction for each of the various options. I've summarized each below, but it's worth checking out because it does help build a mental map of everything going on in that narrow corridor.

• To accomplish a bored tunnel, the pit/trench would begin excavation a considerable distance south of the intersection with the Greenway. The tunnel portal would then be roughly where Lake Street crosses the corridor. That's a huge trench that would take a large amount of space and impact the West Lake station area. At the other end, the portal is almost to Burnham Rd and the trench continues nearly to the 21st St station.

• An elevated trail with surface tracks would start at Lake Street and continue all the way to halfway between Burnham Rd and 21st St. I dislike this simply because elevated trails feel tacky and uninviting. Despite the high cost investment, it feels as though pedestrians and bikers are in the ones who are in the way and need to be moved.

• Elevated LRT would be slightly shorter than the elevated trail, but I really dislike this option if only for aesthetic reasons. In fact, I dislike both elevated options primarily for aesthetic reasons. Lame, I know, but it's a reason

• Finally, a shallow tunnel would start just north of Lake Street and continue to just south of the bridge over the creek connecting Cedar Lake and Lake of the Isles. It's by far the shortest disruption of the bunch that doesn't involve huge elevated structures. I do realize that by being the shortest option, it has the consequence of the greatest area of side-by-side-by-side for all three ROW.

Obviously, everything has trade-offs. While my ideal preference would be re-location for the freight rail, this is my least-bad option for co-location.

[orangevening]

My apologizes- I didn't get into the document before because I assumed it was focused on St. Louis Park (which I care about but Mpls effects me more ) Just read the whole thing. Wow, this line looks complicated and increasingly expensive more and more. I see what you guys are talking about and I agree about the elevated options- just don't look right and as a biker a elevated trail is NOT inviting AT ALL. I predict most bikers/pedestrians won't even use it.

It's too late now, but I wish they would move 21st station to Cedar Lake Road- more riders from Uptown and no disruption to hidden beach. I fear it will be altered way more than it has been.

[David Greene]

Minneapolis is not going to oppose the project. They'll extract some concenssions but I fully expect colocation.

No elevated or tunneled pieces either. No matter what the condos have to go and after that there's no reason not to put everything at grade.

This is all speculation on my part but I'm basing it on the joint BAC/CAC meeting where this seemed to be the general consensus from disinterested parties.

[Ubermoose]

There are a lot of people in St Louis Park who would benefit from relocation, which would do a much better job of grade-separating the existing line in the neighborhoods it passes through. As usual, the opponents are much more vocal than the proponents, but they're there. Unless the cost difference is huge, I expect the plan will stick with relocation. Even with the high number of takings involved, I can't imagine the relocation costs being that much higher than colocation with grade-separation of one of the elements (without which Minneapolis likely won't consent).

I think the opponents are louder because there are a majority of residents that oppose relocation along with the mayor, the city council, and the school board. The benefits you elude to are upgrades that are years past due for the tracks, and had been talked about years ago, before the talk of relocation. I think you would be hard pressed to find residents who know the details of relocation who agree with it.
I think the shallow tunnel is an attractive option for the colocation proposal and I'm guessing it would be more cost effective than boring.

[seanrichardryan]

After thoroughly examining the co-location presentation I have come to one conclusion.

The new Met Council logo looks ridiculous.

[mattaudio]

Still no love for the Brunswick cut and cover rail tunnel alternative.

[min-chi-cbus]

So with all of this talk about a Streetcar line in Minneapolis (per the Strib) does that mean that this (SW Corridor) line and Bottineau are slam-dunks? I wasn't aware of this, but would be happy if it were true!

[Ubermoose]

Not that this is a surprise, but St. Louis Park city council does not support the new freight rail options through the football field.http://stlouispark.patch.com/groups/pol ... eight-rail

[Chauncey87]

Mpls. Group Wants Light Rail Taken Underground

The Southwest Corridor Light Rail will run right between Cedar Lake and Lake of Isles in Minneapolis.

It will wind through St. Louis Park, Hopkins and end in Eden Prairie. But, there is a mile-and-a-half stretch along Cedar Lake that has one group urging the Metropolitan Council to run LRT underground. That stretch is the Kenilworth Bike Trail which passes popular Hidden Beach.

http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3086810.shtml?cat=1

Sounds good I like tunnels! SO can this get built before 2020 now?

[Andrew_F]

Ridiculous. What a waste. We can't tunnel under Washington, 5th, Nicollet, Hennepin, or Broadway, but we can tunnel under Kennilworth?

[talindsay]

Seriously guys, you're giving it any credence? Random people can want anything they feel like wanting, that doesn't mean it will even be considered by the decision-makers. I give this zero percent chance of even delaying decisions by a day, I'm surprised that a reporter was having a dull enough day to bother writing about it. It does indicate that even the most outlandish ideas mentioned on this board could potentially get a short news story some day though.

[twincitizen]

Half the forum would go suicidal if they tunneled Kenilworth, myself included.

[UptownSport]

Ridiculous. What a waste. We can't tunnel under Washington, 5th, Nicollet, Hennepin, or Broadway, but we can tunnel under Kennilworth?

and 3C was too ... ?

Mod Note: Can you please work on being more intelligible? It's hard to decipher many of your posts. Thanks, Nick.

[Andrew_F]

and 3C was too ... ?

What?

[mullen]

it's kstp news...it's always this same reporter..leading off the newscast with a breathless "controversial" the public is ticked off topic. right right...tunnel. that'll happen.