Uptown - LynLake - The Wedge - News & General

[BoredAgain]

Also reinforces the notion here that "gentrification" = "change I don't like," in that some people don't like downzoning and conversion to SFHs.

It's good history to know, nonetheless.

Gentrification is complex, but here are two definitions:

Oxford Dictionary - the process of renovating and improving a house or district so that it conforms to middle-class taste

Wikipedia - Gentrification is a trend in urban neighborhoods, which results in increased property values and the displacing of lower-income families and small businesses.

By either definition, some of the described behaviors (renovating boarding houses into single family homes), but possibly not all (Downzoning contributes to scarcity, but doesn't directly result in the above) would be considered "gentrification".

To muddle the topic, I would say that 2320 Colfax development is a form of gentrification, but not as exclusionary as the practices mentioned in the streets.mn article.

[acs]

The uptown VFW will open a live music stage as part of its remodel.

http://www.citypages.com/music/live-mus ... ce-8047650

[David Greene]

[Gentrification is complex

Yes it is. My point is that there are some here who have a rather self-righteous definition of gentrification which can be applied to make those same people look bad, given their definition.

In other words, some people self-righteously simplify "gentrification" to the absurd as a way to dismiss it as an issue.

[RailBaronYarr]

Ignore your impulse to criticize John's post, or hiding behind the g** word and all its complexities, and give a simple answer:

Did the land-use policies the select few neighborhood residents successfully advocated for in the 1970s, as well as the actions taken by property rehabbers in the past 30-40 years, have a positive or negative impact on long-term housing affordability, housing stock options, and neighborhood diversity? In other words, what was the outcome? What would have happened if the city adopted the policies pushed by the neighborhood to downzone almost every R6 parcel in the Wedge? Does this conflict with your narrative that residents have supported density along the edges of the neighborhood?

[David Greene]

I did not make any comment on the merits of John's post. I am simply pointing out the ridiculous definition of "gentrification" used by some here cuts both ways.

[grant1simons2]

Planning Applications for last week mention a new 10 unit apartment building at 2008 Bryant Ave S.

[seanrichardryan]

I love that house, though its a bit forlorn.

[EOst]

Hope they're ready for war.

[Nathan]

Yeah the house is in bad shape but endearing. It's going to have to be a really nice project. War is inevitable. I'll support a handsome market rate building here though.

[RailBaronYarr]

Mediocre looking 10 unit building > attractive but dilapidated 3 unit building > restored, attractive $million single family house.

In case anyone was wondering where I stand on stuff like this.

[seanrichardryan]

A million dollars? Uh, it sold last year for 275k.

[Nathan]

I think the Idea was if it was changed from a 3 bedroom rental to a fully renovated single family home it would increase in value.

[Wedgeguy]

I think the Idea was if it was changed from a 3 bedroom rental to a fully renovated single family home it would increase in value.

Pumping in another quarter million to update the kitchen, bathrooms and electrical and plumbing, sand the wood floors and then, you might get it closer to 3/4 of a mil, unless you are spending a 1/2 mil + on the renovation and really going full bore on making things top notch.

[RailBaronYarr]

I guess, yeah, I was being pretty general there. A single family house sold for $500k be affordable to maybe 1-2% more of the population than a $1 million SFH.

[twincitizen]

Dumb question: is the southern end of Uptown e.g. land near Lake street more valuable than further north near Franklin? E.g., do people want to live closer to Lake street than Franklin as far as Uptown goes or is it all about the same?

Without looking at assessments of land values, it's hard to know. The houses in the norther Wedge are more expensive, but that's likely because the houses are much bigger and fancier. Generally the southern Wedge seems to be more popular for the younger, singler crowd while the northern Wedge is more family oriented. Very generally speaking as there are obviously plenty of apartments and small condos in the northern Wedge.

We are a proud counter-cultural family.

The quoted posts are from a year ago, but I just pulled them into this thread from a tangent on something completely unrelated (Hiawatha Grain Elevators something something). I thought they could provoke discussion here. Tough question to answer, but David's is in the right direction.

Overall, I think Lake Street is the better "amenity" in terms of stores and things that people want to walk to (compounded by the Greenway proximity too). The sort of "central Wedge" between 22nd-25th has nice draws too, with Kowalskis on Hennepin, the Co-op on Lyndale. Lake Street is a much bigger "magnet", at least to me. Then again, I've only lived at 28th & Grand (Whittier) and 36th & Dupont (CARAG). In terms of how that "amenity proximity" affects real estate values though, I think David is right that houses in the north Wedge are bigger, grander, and more rare, commanding a premium above other parts of the neighborhood, regardless of amenity/proximity-driven factors. I'm not including in this conversation areas west of Hennepin towards the lakes...that's something else entirely, as there are fewer multi-unit buildings and the housing stock taken as a whole is in really good shape. It's amazing how many poorly maintained homes there are (whether single family or cut up into a triplex or more) even in the Wedge and nicer areas of Whittier. You see them everywhere really. You can probably find some pretty terribly-maintained houses scattered around even in the nicest parts of southwest.

[David Greene]

houses in the north Wedge are bigger, grander, and more rare, commanding a premium above other parts of the neighborhood, regardless of amenity/proximity-driven factors.

Yes, exactly. One aspect I want to add is that as one's family grows, it's pretty tough to stay in a small apartment or condo. If you've got 3-4 kids, a two-bedroom unit just doesn't cut it anymore. That's one of the reasons I'll strongly advocate for maintaining a supply of SFHs nearer Lake St. I've found that when you have kids, it's even more important to be able to walk places because loading kiddos into the car seat is a PITA. Plus just walking outside is a nice break from kids running and screaming through the house. One of the reasons those houses in the north Wedge are more expensive (above what I would consider the average/reasonable price for a house their size) is that it's so damn hard to find a place in the area for a family of more than three. That rarity commands a premium.

And it's absolutely true that the housing stock is better-maintained west of Hennepin. It's true for both the south and north Wedge. There's probably a hundred reasons for that but some of it almost certainly has to do with neglectful landlords.

[LakeCharles]

If you've got 3-4 kids, a two-bedroom unit just doesn't cut it anymore ... it's so damn hard to find a place in the area for a family of more than three.

I think you are overstating the "difficulty" of having 2 or 3 kids in an apartment. My two sisters and I shared a room growing up and it wasn't really that hard. Once we were all in our teens, we moved to a 3-bedroom, but my sisters still shared a room. Then as a parent, we had 2 kids in a two-bedroom apt for a couple of years. And as the average woman right now has 1.87 kids, I don't know that we need to plan that extensively for 4+ child households. I mean we should have options, for sure, but according to Social Security, less than 5% of people have more than 3 children in the house with them. And that number is going down.

[David Greene]

If you've got 3-4 kids, a two-bedroom unit just doesn't cut it anymore ... it's so damn hard to find a place in the area for a family of more than three.

I think you are overstating the "difficulty" of having 2 or 3 kids in an apartment. My two sisters and I shared a room growing up and it wasn't really that hard.

Sure, it can be done, but how many families really want to do that if they can afford something bigger? That's my point. Those big houses are extra expensive because people want them and supply is limited in the area.

[RailBaronYarr]

According to Census ACS data, the % of all Minneapolis households with 3 or more kids is about 6-7%. Metro-wide, only 9.2% of all households have 3+ kids. Of family households with children, 3+ kids in the house is 28% in both Minneapolis and MSP. Catering to a very small household demographic, one that is extremely likely to continue declining as time moves on (as LakeCharles notes), shouldn't be a priority policy goal. Even if it were, massive single family homes in prime real estate a mile or two from downtown shouldn't be the means of achieving it, since 3 BR apartments, 3 BR units in triplexes, 3 BR townhomes, or other solutions can be had by redevelopment/subdivision. As a personal anecdote, I am constantly reminding myself how much unused space my 1,600 sqft home (plus unfinished but furnished basement) has, even with with a kid and 2 golden retrievers. There are just so, so many houses in Minneapolis proper that could fit a good chunk of the metro's family households if the old retired or young childless people would make more rational decisions about the square footage they actually needed. On my block alone there are 6 houses with a one or two 60+ year old people living in them that could have sold at a profit long ago and downsized to a 600 sqft apartment. How many newly-married couples buy a 3BR home without kids, then upgrade to the 4-5BR place one suburb out once they have a kid or two? Ignoring historic preservation goals, there really is no "need" for a single detached SFR in the Wedge today given how many SFRs there are across the city.

And, I'll also toss in again that the presence of *other* large, grand single family homes in a block is a fairly insignificant driver of property values for an individual grand, beautiful single family home. Barring the "Up House" nightmare, many people would love to live in a 3,500 square foot home on a quarter acre in the middle of an extremely walkable neighborhood. Unfortunately for affordability, there are more than enough doctors married to lawyers with one or two kids who can afford such a living arrangement at $500,000 or more bucks. If you're making a case that there are large households of immigrant or low-income communities with multiple generations or lots of combined kids that can pool together enough money to afford a big home, I'm with you - this is a thing and may be a better option for some families than breaking out into individual housing units. But we all know that's not what's going on in the Wedge or East Isles/LH.

Finally, I couldn't write a post this long without again stating that a terribly-maintained 100-year old house (by landlord or owner) isn't necessarily a bad thing. We need to ensure there aren't health/safety violations with this depreciation, but what other durable goods in our society are able to run their course that long? Of all the wasteful, consumerist, landfill-filling things we do in this country, I just don't think tearing down a house every 100 years registers on the scale.

Sure, it can be done, but how many families really want to do that if they can afford something bigger? That's my point. Those big houses are extra expensive because people want them and supply is limited in the area.

I'm just continually shocked you make this argument. There are actually families that live in apartments today with 1-2 kids and 2 BRs. In CARAG and the Wedge, they're more likely to be people of color and with lower incomes than the owners of large single family homes. They're able to afford living in those apartments today in an awesome location because some evil developers knocked down precious single family homes in the 60s and 70s. Why should we continue to accommodate a very small proportion of the population (very rich families with 3+ kids) over what we know to be a long-term place for middle/low-income families in the long-run?

[amiller92]

If the value of these homes was being driven by their scarcity, there would not be so many of them that are (still) subdivided and in ill repair. If anything, the size of the homes we're talking about has depresses their value, thus the current state of many of them.

And really, some of these old houses in the Wedge are surprisingly cheap. We looked at one maybe a year ago that was listed low lower than I would have thought ($450-500 if I recall), which is at least a few hundred K less than on the other side of Hennepin and easily half if it was nearer the water.