DTE: Wells Fargo, Radisson Red, Edition Apts & Millwright Building

[martykoessel]

Digging down is hugely expensive, 'cause there's lots of stuff down there which isn't easy to move.

Balancing traffic movement and park usage (assuming this all comes to pass), will take much creativity and a good sense of compromise.

[gpete]

A little more info in this Finance & Commerce article: http://finance-commerce.com/2013/07/rya ... velopment/

Interesting that the deputy director of CPED (Lutz) said that the CITY will own the park "Unless someone else wants it."

Article also says that the Ryan Co plan will be discussed at City Council Community Development Committee meeting on July 9. Full council will weigh in on July 19.

[Didier]

Is owning and managing a two-block downtown park even profitable for a private owner?

[twincitizen]

I'm all about interrupting north/south traffic flow on Park and Portland north of 5th St. It's not a big deal for local motorists to go 2 blocks out of the way.

Walk/bike connectivity should be maintained via the plane of the closed street through the park.

Agreed. In a true emergency, an ambulance could easily mount the bike path to cut through the park. That should not be standard practice, or something to be abused by authority figures (*cough* driving over the Sabo bridge *cough*) but available when absolutely necessary.

Additionally, interrupting Park and Portland from Washington could possibly lower the traffic counts on Washington just enough to get rid of that damn 3rd westbound lane.

[mattaudio]

Not even counting the fact that Hennepin County engineers and traffic consultants are oblivious to the fact that there's a westbound one-way street at least three lanes wide only 300 feet to the south of Washington which already sees light traffic because it's not fed by a freeway on the east end. Never mind that fact, of course. But I guess that's a topic for the Washington Ave thread.

[tabletop]

I still can't get behind the closure of Park and Portland. If your headed Northbound on say Park Ave, unless they make significant improvements to Chicago, the only real course of action would be to turn on 7th street (that will already be more congested with traffic from the new westbound 94 ramp and Hiawatha) and go down to 5th Ave and cut back on 4th street. It doesn't sound like much, but given the way we time stoplight's in this town and add a bunch of traffic during rush hour or a game and that little detour could add a lot of time to one of the best ways to get through downtown.

[PhilmerPhil]

...that little detour could add a lot of time to one of the best ways to get through downtown.

I'm sorry, but I have to say this... I really don't think the one of the best ways to get through downtown is by driving a car.

[RailBaronYarr]

^^ Yep. What are we building the Central Corridor, SWLRT, Blue Line extension, Orange Line Freeway BRT, bike infrastructure, aBRT corridors, etc if not for alleviating the need for all that capacity dedicated to cars? Transportation myopia, folks...

[Creole4u]

I have to agree with tabletop on the closings of Portland & Park Aves.....
I don't think it is a good idea at all.

by PhilmerPhil » July 3rd, 2013, 1:27 pm

tabletop wrote:
...that little detour could add a lot of time to one of the best ways to get through downtown.
I'm sorry, but I have to say this... I really don't think the one of the best ways to get through downtown is by driving a car.

by RailBaronYarr » July 3rd, 2013, 4:29 pm

^^ Yep. What are we building the Central Corridor, SWLRT, Blue Line extension, Orange Line Freeway BRT, bike infrastructure, aBRT corridors, etc if not for alleviating the need for all that capacity dedicated to cars? Transportation myopia, folks...

I think some of you forget that people who live in the city of Minneapolis use these major arteries daily to simply commute between the south, southeast, north and northeast sides of the city. The Green & Blue line extensions are for... suburbanites. The Orange line is for....suburbanites. The Central corridor only travels through the SE side. Some people dont want to bike. Its not a matter of "Transportation myopia" --- It's simply about city residents, multiple transportation (bus) lines & emergency vehicular traffic being able to use these major arteries. The Met Council expresses similar sentiments and has already said they are completely against the closure of Portland & Park. Sorry if this sounds blunt, but as a 25 year resident of the city (having lived on 3 different sides of it), I use this pair of one-way connectors on an almost daily basis (so do tens of thousands of other like me) .... i felt a need to speak up.

[Wedgeguy]

I will agree with you. As someone that live in the Wedge. I many times have left downtown on Portland to 26th and then across to home so I don't have to deal with The Lyndale/Hennepin mess. And don't say I can take the bus as I've sat on those buses for an hour to get less than a mile and not even half way to my destination when traffic is F*****D. And Yes I'm leaving from Washington so that is the route I'll be taking.

[Rich]

It's not like we'd remove Park and Portland entirely. We'd just close a single block. If we open 5th Av to two-way traffic, Portland drivers would go west a block, drive south on 5th past the closure, then go east back to Portland. Park drivers would use Chicago to accomplish the same. For all drivers, the length of the detour would never be more than two blocks.

[MNdible]

I suggested this before, but it didn't catch on, so I will repeat because I still think it's a good idea that is a decent compromise for the Park/Portland situation.

We close Portland down completely at the park. This allows the two blocks of the park to become a superblock, without interruption. Park Avenue remains open except for game days and special events, but becomes a two way street between 7th Street and the river. On non-game days, there's not really a reason that the park needs to be connected to the stadium. Best of both worlds, no need for expensive tunneling, etc.

I don't think shutting them both down completely is a viable option -- remember, Chicago Avenue isn't going to be a "real" street either (and the intersection with LRT there is problematic), so in the scenario where we shut them both down, there's no street capable of moving meaningful traffic between 5th and 11th.

[mattaudio]

I think we need to ask where many of the current users of Park/Portland/Chicago/11th are coming and going. My gut says that a lot of them use it as a way to get between the Washington/35W interchange and cross streets further south like 7th/8th/9th/10th. This "L" allows them to bypass heavier congestion in the gateway district.

A lot of this traffic could just as easily take the northwesterly L around the park, using 4th/5th Aves to 3rd/4th Streets to get to/from the east. And connecting 35W to 3rd/4th and giving Washington Ave back to more local uses would also help. I realize this is just my gut feeling on this traffic and how it would be affected by severing Park/Portland between Elliot Park and Mill District, but I don't think it would be that big of an impact.

[RailBaronYarr]

The Green & Blue line extensions are for... suburbanites. The Orange line is for....suburbanites. The Central corridor only travels through the SE side. Some people dont want to bike. Its not a matter of "Transportation myopia" --- It's simply about city residents, multiple transportation (bus) lines & emergency vehicular traffic being able to use these major arteries.

And don't say I can take the bus as I've sat on those buses for an hour to get less than a mile and not even half way to my destination when traffic is F*****D. And Yes I'm leaving from Washington so that is the route I'll be taking.

So am I crazy or are even suburban commuter lines not intended to do two things: increase mobility options for people (Green and blue still serve Mpls residents, keep in mind) and reduce auto congestion on streets? Is it at all possible that a reduction in vehicle traffic by mode shift (and as part of a larger societal shift towards living closer/denser taking fewer trips by autos - already happening) would ease congestion on streets making at-grade public transit faster? Is it at all possible that due to capacity, efficiency, etc that things like buses and streetcars might get their own dedicated lanes and be quicker than cars (or at least as fast)? Yes, heaven forbid we envision out 20 years (looking at you, Met Council) and talk frankly about how the streets operate in our most valuable areas.

MNdibles compromise definitely seems reasonable.

[MNdible]

MNdibles compromise definitely seems reasonable.

Thanks.

As an aside, I'll note that even if (and I think it will happen) non-auto transportation makes up a much higher percentage of mode share in the future, we are projecting that downtown will grow significantly. Its resident population will double, and I'm hopeful that it will grow significantly as an employment, entertainment, and cultural center. From my eyes, this means that it's unlikely that auto demand will decrease in real terms over the foreseeable future. So, while we should make sure that our streets better accommodate a wide range of users, we can't assume that we'll be able to slash lanes without any impacts to the accessibility of downtown.

[mattaudio]

That's true, and I do like your compromise as well. Another gut perception of mine is that increased downtown residents would increase vehicle demand much more at non-peak hours than at peak hours. Downtown streets, especially the 3+ lane one-way variety, are overbuilt for non rush hours.

[David Greene]

I will agree with you. As someone that live in the Wedge. I many times have left downtown on Portland to 26th and then across to home so I don't have to deal with The Lyndale/Hennepin mess. And don't say I can take the bus as I've sat on those buses for an hour to get less than a mile and not even half way to my destination when traffic is F*****D. And Yes I'm leaving from Washington so that is the route I'll be taking.

I go through downtown to the Wedge via 3rd frequently to avoid congestion on 94. I used to take Portland but have found it much faster to take 11th Ave. or Chicago. That was true even before the current closures. Portland attracts a lot of traffic and gets particularly jammed at 15th and at Franklin. Traffic is comparatively nonexistant on Chicago. 11th is a little less convenient because it doesn't go directly through to 26th but is still better than Portland.

I have absolutely no problem closing Portland and Park at the park.

[Nick]

Man, sure seems like they're banking on Wells Fargo, huh?

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 110758.pdf

Does anyone have any thoughts about that signage? I kinda like our lack of it. I'm not going to go crazy if it's approved but wouldn't this be the first notable signage on a downtown building?

[mattaudio]

As an official "branding champion," I'm cool with it.

[Suburban Outcast]

It doesn't seem too invasive, though I wouldn't like seeing that on a taller building like the Wells Fargo Center.

I think it would seem kinda weird if they started putting signs on tall buildings like what DT St. Paul does.