Does Minneapolis have too many stoplights?

[MinneapBliss]

Another revival of an old thread: do others think a roundabout would near-infinitely help auto/bike/pedestrian traffic at the east side of the Franklin Bridge over the Mississippi (intersection of Franklin, SE 27th, and E River Rd)? I know they re-did this area a few years ago, but the waits are terrible, the eastbound bike lane cuts across a right turn lane with a right turn arrow(!), it just seems to be an unnecessary, constant cluster. Seems like there is room for a roundabout, could have a big M statue in the middle welcoming folks to campus or a Prospect Park shout-out...I'm sure there are reasons this wasn't done last time, but I'm really curious as to what those are. Also wondering if others have other future roundabout locations in mind? This is the one I'm exasperated by most, but I imagine there are others.

[twincitizen]

Yes, that intersection and it's signals are horrible and it obviously should have been rebuilt as a roundabout. I think if that intersection project had come up just a few years later than it did, there's a strong chance it would've been a roundabout, or at least proposed, debated, and killed. I don't know if the Park Board opposed it, or Hennepin County never studied it, or what the situation was at the time. I wouldn't be shocked if Hennepin County wanted a roundabout, but area residents killed it, due to urban roundabouts being basically non-existent in MN at the time (specifically on busy arterial streets, not the little neighborhood-scale ones). They're still relatively rare within the inner metro area, aside from roundabout-loving Richfield. The roundabouts at 66th & Richfield Parkway (Target) and 66th & Portland were built in ~2006 and ~2009 and it feels like it took a decade for people to learn how to use them properly. The more recent lane reduction retrofits have helped, for sure.

I bet there's at least a couple people on here who were paying attention at the time and remember at least vaguely how the process went.

[grant1simons2]

THE QUARRY SHOULD HAVE ROUNDABOUTS AND I WILL DIE ON THIS HILL

[mattaudio]

Yes, build a roundabout there. But also route the river bike path underneath the Franklin Bridge with ramps to the roundabout on both sides of the approach. This would allow for people to safely bike from both directions on the Franklin Bridge to the river path with simple loops. Probably would require a trail bridge over Bridal Veil Falls.

[StandishGuy]

The discussion around removing stop lights/ installing roundabouts appears to be solely framed from the perspective of car drivers. Just because people own and operate a motor vehicle doesn't mean that they need to be moving at all times, especially at the expense of other road users. My question is how would a child, blind person or senior citizen cross a street safely after a stop light was removed and/or a roundabout installed? As a blind person myself, I cannot imagine stepping out into a busy intersection with a roundabout because it isn't clear whether any motorists would stop. In my experience people driving just don't pay that much attention, and at least they mostly obey stop lights.

[Trademark]

The discussion around removing stop lights/ installing roundabouts appears to be solely framed from the perspective of car drivers. Just because people own and operate a motor vehicle doesn't mean that they need to be moving at all times, especially at the expense of other road users. My question is how would a child, blind person or senior citizen cross a street safely after a stop light was removed and/or a roundabout installed? As a blind person myself, I cannot imagine stepping out into a busy intersection with a roundabout because it isn't clear whether any motorists would stop. In my experience people driving just don't pay that much attention, and at least they mostly obey stop lights.

Flashing crosswalks usually are respected by drivers.

[mattaudio]

Tabled crosswalks with refuge islands set back from the roundabout. I'd feel far safer crossing there than a stoplight intersection where someone may be taking a fast left turn into me with a permissive green.

[MattW]

The discussion around removing stop lights/ installing roundabouts appears to be solely framed from the perspective of car drivers. Just because people own and operate a motor vehicle doesn't mean that they need to be moving at all times, especially at the expense of other road users. My question is how would a child, blind person or senior citizen cross a street safely after a stop light was removed and/or a roundabout installed? As a blind person myself, I cannot imagine stepping out into a busy intersection with a roundabout because it isn't clear whether any motorists would stop. In my experience people driving just don't pay that much attention, and at least they mostly obey stop lights.

Flashing crosswalks usually are respected by drivers.

Rush hour roundabout drivers in Richfield beg to differ

[grant1simons2]

I feel safer biking and walking in Richfield than I do on many new roads in Minneapolis

[Mdcastle]

I tried bicycling down the new cycletrack in Richfield. I would have much preferrred traffic signals to the roundabouts, not only on my bicycle but every time I have to use the Portland Roundabout in my car. In fact I go out of my way to avoid it.

[LiamG]

I tried bicycling down the new cycletrack in Richfield. I would have much preferrred traffic signals to the roundabouts, not only on my bicycle but every time I have to use the Portland Roundabout in my car. In fact I go out of my way to avoid it.

I much prefer both biking AND driving through the Richfield roundabouts - as compared to biking and driving on Nicollet Ave S with all the stop-lights.

[DanPatchToget]

If you want pedestrian and biker-friendly roundabouts just copy Dutch roundabout designs. Though it helps that they have a much safer and more patient driving culture than here.

[MattW]

My impression is that most cars treat right turns like a slip lane and are accelerating out and are not looking for pedestrians. Wondering if a tighter radius would help slow things down more?

Edit: My main gripe is with this particular turn: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8835679 ... 384!8i8192

Right turning cars don't really enter the roundabout and have an unobstructed right turn. Doesn't help that the trees block the pedestrian sign most of the way.

[StandishGuy]

Let's try that again... Put yourself into someone else's shoes and imagine crossing a street on foot with a roundabout. IMO the existing MN roundabouts encourage high traffic speeds making it dangerous and uncomfortable for a child, blind person or senior to cross.

Dutch-style roundabouts sound nice, but do not currently exist here for someone to experience. Also, I imagine the streets leading up to the roundabouts are not built as stroads like the examples in Richfield.

[MinneapBliss]

Obviously no one here wants to increase the risk of physical harm for anyone. My initial post mentioned autos, bikes and pedestrians so as to make clear this is not a car-centric line of thought. I don't think roundabouts need to replace all stoplights...just possibly the one i referenced, and was curious about other similar locations in the metro that feature more complex intersections (7 Corners?). If the existing roundabouts in MN need additional safety upgrades, let's do those! Pedestrian islands, enhanced signage, speed bumps, anything else that people smarter than me have invented to ensure pedestrian safety.

For the east-of-Franklin Bridge intersection, none of the streets involved are stroads. One is a parkway. One lane in each direction for all of them, except for the (potentially unnecessary) turn lanes. I like the idea of a roundabout here because it is built form that encourages slower speeds for all but the most reckless or distracted drivers. Those people aren't driving safely at stoplight-controlled intersections, either. An added benefit in this case would be less ridiculous wait times for everyone, less idling, etc.

[MattW]

Obviously no one here wants to increase the risk of physical harm for anyone. My initial post mentioned autos, bikes and pedestrians so as to make clear this is not a car-centric line of thought. I don't think roundabouts need to replace all stoplights...just possibly the one i referenced, and was curious about other similar locations in the metro that feature more complex intersections (7 Corners?). If the existing roundabouts in MN need additional safety upgrades, let's do those! Pedestrian islands, enhanced signage, speed bumps, anything else that people smarter than me have invented to ensure pedestrian safety.

For the east-of-Franklin Bridge intersection, none of the streets involved are stroads. One is a parkway. One lane in each direction for all of them, except for the (potentially unnecessary) turn lanes. I like the idea of a roundabout here because it is built form that encourages slower speeds for all but the most reckless or distracted drivers. Those people aren't driving safely at stoplight-controlled intersections, either. An added benefit in this case would be less ridiculous wait times for everyone, less idling, etc.

Definitely agree with you on this. I've thought the Franklin & E River Rd intersection would be a good fit for a roundabout before.

Regarding Richfield, I really only have pedestrian experience with the roundabout furthest east near the Target. I have much less experience with the roundabouts further west where the 66th road diet is much better. Just the one near the Target still has a lot of it's STROAD properties still intact. A STROAD with a roundabout is still a STROAD, IMO.

[Trademark]

Obviously no one here wants to increase the risk of physical harm for anyone. My initial post mentioned autos, bikes and pedestrians so as to make clear this is not a car-centric line of thought. I don't think roundabouts need to replace all stoplights...just possibly the one i referenced, and was curious about other similar locations in the metro that feature more complex intersections (7 Corners?). If the existing roundabouts in MN need additional safety upgrades, let's do those! Pedestrian islands, enhanced signage, speed bumps, anything else that people smarter than me have invented to ensure pedestrian safety.

For the east-of-Franklin Bridge intersection, none of the streets involved are stroads. One is a parkway. One lane in each direction for all of them, except for the (potentially unnecessary) turn lanes. I like the idea of a roundabout here because it is built form that encourages slower speeds for all but the most reckless or distracted drivers. Those people aren't driving safely at stoplight-controlled intersections, either. An added benefit in this case would be less ridiculous wait times for everyone, less idling, etc.

Definitely agree with you on this. I've thought the Franklin & E River Rd intersection would be a good fit for a roundabout before.

Regarding Richfield, I really only have pedestrian experience with the roundabout furthest east near the Target. I have much less experience with the roundabouts further west where the 66th road diet is much better. Just the one near the Target still has a lot of it's STROAD properties still intact. A STROAD with a roundabout is still a STROAD, IMO.

I think the biggest problem with that roundabout is it's proximity to 77. The closer to a freeway entrance the more dangerous the driving is. Portland, Nicollet, and Lyndale have worked really good for me to bike thru. And has contributed to slower speeds on the rest of 66th between the roundabouts. The spacing is also very good. Not super frequent but long enough where cars don't get up to dangerous speeds most of the time. Another difference between the target roundabout. If there was also a roundabout at 12th or Bloomington I think it would contribute to it's safety also.

[exiled_antipodean]

With respect to the Franklin/East River Road/27th fustercluck, the situation is that in 2008/9 the county/city/park board studied things, and there were some truly insane things proposed like a two-lane roundabout, and significant engineering to cantilever the bike trail under the Franklin bridge. The volumes at this intersection are well, well below what would require a 2 lane roundabout, and putting the bike trail under the bridge would make it less safe for visibility reasons, and also snow/ice/melt issues.

There are proposals for a Dutch-style roundabout. We have a small version of a Dutch-style roundabout in Minneapolis down at Minnehaha Park, and it works well. No reason why we can't reproduce it at Franklin/East River Road/27th

[Hero]

The stoplight that has had me wondering why it exists is the one on 40th and Cedar.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9303967 ... 2?hl=en-GB

Is it for the bike lane?

[Trademark]

The stoplight that has had me wondering why it exists is the one on 40th and Cedar.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9303967 ... 2?hl=en-GB

Is it for the bike lane?

Pretty sure it's just because of the bike blvd