urbanMSP

Bring back Duval!

Back to the preliminary rendering of the tower...I have to say that I am generally disappointed by the mass. I do understand that it’s very preliminary, however any sense of icon has is still lost. (Understanding that icon can be created through a combination of height and unique architecture.) To me the lack of uniqueness even within the preliminary mass has me very concerned that this is not going to translate to a special tower. For the base and site, the forms are interesting and work well with the future street car. I like how they left the NW corner green and open to funnel views and building edges down Nicolet. I’m also glad to see that they still have underground parking. I’m still generally excited for something to happen on this block and this would make a fine addition, however the current plan are just fine, not GREAT!

Hard to do much more than roll eyes, pshaw and say, "whatever."

There's no way anyone can be truly surprised, as you could see this result coming from miles away, starting the very moment of the city's dramatic over-promise ('i-word').

Yeah, but in this case, it's closing Nicollet a single block before it ends anyway, not cutting it in half. I would have been fine with it, but keeping the ROW in public hands is probably a good idea too.

Yeah, and it's not even "closing Nicollet." It's closing Nicollet for one type of user, buses. I'm assuming there would still be a viewshed to the Minoru Yamasaki and pedestrian access. It would extend the plaza further east and help tie into Marquette Plaza's park (and I don't think they can lower the grade or get rid of the stubby retaining wall today since there's parking/loading beneath the park).

It's actually a good idea to incorporate this block of Nicollet into the plaza. Buses on the mall could use 3rd to connect with Hennepin or Central to cross the river. Or they could use the diagonal streetcar right of way. And the streetcar stop should have side platforms rather than a center platform anyways, given the benefit of being adjacent to a plaza (think Government Center Station).

It's actually a good idea to incorporate this block of Nicollet into the plaza. Buses on the mall could use 3rd to connect with Hennepin or Central to cross the river.

That turn right from 3rd onto Hennepin is a doozy though. None of the pedestrians watch for it (because why would you?) and it's a pretty sharp angle. I've almost been hit by a turning 3 more than once since this detour started.

I would like to know how this new design - though conceptual - even remotely addresses this requirement by the city:

A mixed use tower with at least 30 stories to include a hotel, residential, commercial and/or office uses with a façade, a portion of which includes a mullion pattern reflecting the topography of the Mississippi River (collectively,
the “Tower”);

From the Term Sheet:
http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 171433.pdf

That turn right from 3rd onto Hennepin is a doozy though. None of the pedestrians watch for it (because why would you?) and it's a pretty sharp angle.

A good reason for a giant pork chop island. Bloomingtonize is on it!
Couldn't these buses take the angle across the block if they could operate on the streetcar tracks similar to the WATM? If not, I'd like to see more leading intervals for buses in downtown. We do leading pedestrian intervals, so I'm thinking we could give buses their own queue space and give them leading intervals to get through an intersection before pedestrians. That may work on the SW corner of this block.

I would like to know how this new design - though conceptual - even remotely addresses this requirement by the city:

A mixed use tower with at least 30 stories to include a hotel, residential, commercial and/or office uses with a façade, a portion of which includes a mullion pattern reflecting the topography of the Mississippi River (collectively,
the “Tower”);

From the Term Sheet:
http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 171433.pdf

No idea. Maybe the city can use that as an excuse to just chuck UP and reopen up the RFP process, maybe even with enough lead time to let more proposals come in? It's not looking like it'll be finished for the Super Bowl anyway, so they might as well take more time and get a better product.

#wishfulthinking

#hashtagsdontworkontheforum

Downtown could literally be nothing but two stadiums and a thousand parking lots with exits galore and they'd still complain about having to park so far away.

Heck, the eastern and northern parts of the CBD were basically that for decades.

This proposal was already kind of disappointing to start with, but considering they've now jettisoned everything that made it palatable I really do hope the city tells them to piss off and opens it back up again. I know they won't because of cronyism but a boy can dream.

This proposal was already kind of disappointing to start with, but considering they've now jettisoned everything that made it palatable I really do hope the city tells them to piss off and opens it back up again. I know they won't because of cronyism but a boy can dream.

What exactly did they get rid of that you even liked? Other than the initial 50+ stories.

For me, I liked the animated LED facade of the original (or rather the revised original). It was a great idea even though it too was just conceptual.

I like how they left the NW corner green and open to funnel views and building edges down Nicolet.

That's actually the part that concerns me. In this rendering,1/4 of the block is effectively open space. Maybe that's needed if the streetcar happens, but what if it doesn't? Another lifeless plaza? Will there be programming or something to make this active space?

Meanwhile, another 1/4 of the lot is going to be underused, low-rise retail. Will it actually be occupied?

As you say, it looks "fine" but I'm concerned that we're passing on the opportunity to add greater density and potentially shooting the retail in the foot from the get go.

The architectural prow that went over the street car line, the staggered block shape of the tower that did give a lot of dynamic to the shape. That tower was also skinnier, it didn't run the block so the height ratio looked much nicer. How about the lit LED pattern that completely covered the tower? I also liked it with more units... obviously all that was conceptual but they completely trashed anything that was creative "architecture". The building is still ok, but I'd rather see it next to lpm or in dte, not in the "gateway" it would be nice to have something iconic by a master architect... it's an incredible opportunity and it seems wasted now.

The way the streetcar tracks were shown cutting through mid block and going through/under the building, the weird lighting features and yeah, a bunch of floors matter too. Now they want to build something wholly unremarkable when their original proposal was barely interesting to begin with. I wouldn't be surprised if they ask to drop the hotel portion eventually too and just build another nic on fifth or 4marq. I'm not opposed to more buildings like that, but it's not what the city asked for or what was promised here.

The problem with trying to break this development deal is that it will end up in court for years... like the LSGI law suits. These deals are so complex and have so many caveats that they can't easily of quickly be cancelled. (Duval looks better and better- at least he wanted to do something big and make a name for himself... the other 3 proposals were pretty lazy)

Obligatory caveat that none of the new renderings are nighttime renders, so we don't actually know anything about what they're planning for lighting now.

A good reason for a giant pork chop island. Bloomingtonize is on it!
Couldn't these buses take the angle across the block if they could operate on the streetcar tracks similar to the WATM? If not, I'd like to see more leading intervals for buses in downtown. We do leading pedestrian intervals, so I'm thinking we could give buses their own queue space and give them leading intervals to get through an intersection before pedestrians. That may work on the SW corner of this block.

The streetcar ROW might work, but at that point you've effectively just shifted Nicollet Mall NW, haven't you? It might make a larger contiguous greenspace with Cancer Survivors Park, but you'd also have several buses per minute running through the plaza at peak hours.

I thought I read that there is a scheduled public meeting on this project for today. If anyone is able to find out and attend, could you please ask how a supposedly competitive bidding process and a stated desire for something "iconic" has brought us a proposal with a forgettable design that's barely taller than the Churchill Apartments.

8 trees plopped into a concrete triangle seems a bit sloppy for the plaza between the streetcar tracks, Nicollet, and Washington. Isn't landscape architecture a profession?

Conceptual massing usually doesn't show much accuracy other than how the mass of the building will look..

There is so much that can and most likely will be changed.