StoneBridge (2nd Street South & 11th Avenue South)

[min-chi-cbus]

Children make a community truly cohesive and liveable, IMO. So seeing children outside playing and/or going into and out of their homes (apartments or condos) gives people a sense of community and comfort -- true urban living. The NIMBYism that results is probably the only time I can put up with NIMBYism, because it's for a cause that I actually understand and don't feel is so selfish.

[Nathan]

One aspect of this project that I really like is that it has 3 BR units (SW Journal said this; it is correct, right?). Especially with the proximity to Gold Medal Park, this will be one of the few new projects downtown that is truly attractive to families with children. Downtown needs kids and families; a disproportionate percentage of singles and empty nesters is (1) bad for density - one person, maximum two people per unit, and (2) inimical to fostering community - kids bring adults together, it's true. On the flipside, families with children are horrendous NIMBY's, but I still think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Also if you look at the site plan they have a big play area in the back, which seems to emphasize that they are really trying to market this towards families.

[Nick]

"Ice cream factory-adjacent"

[SixOneTwo]

The Bridgewater is a nice mix of young families, empty nesters, and Yuppies. I would expect the makeup of "Park Vista" to be the same. I am excited to see this project go up, hopefully its success will convince Sherman to move forward on Zenith II (although I would prefer office space at that location).

[MNdible]

One aspect of this project that I really like is that it has 3 BR units (SW Journal said this; it is correct, right?). Especially with the proximity to Gold Medal Park, this will be one of the few new projects downtown that is truly attractive to families with children.

Except a 3BR condo downtown costs $600,000. That's a hard sell when you can buy a very nice 3BR house in leafy south Minneapolis for half that cost.

[John]

One aspect of this project that I really like is that it has 3 BR units (SW Journal said this; it is correct, right?). Especially with the proximity to Gold Medal Park, this will be one of the few new projects downtown that is truly attractive to families with children.

Except a 3BR condo downtown costs $600,000. That's a hard sell when you can buy a very nice 3BR house in leafy south Minneapolis for half that cost.

I think there's a small niche market for this type of condo, but I don't think you want to add hundreds of them to the market. This project will be quite unique for designing units for couples with children, so I think it will be successful.

[min-chi-cbus]

The only two kinds of downtown family living that I've ever heard of are for the very poor or very rich -- there's seemingly no real middle ground for average middle income families to live downtown. MAYBE NYC, SF, or some of those cities large urban centers, but not the Minneapolis', Seattles, Denvers of the world!

[Nick]

The only two kinds of downtown family living that I've ever heard of are for the very poor or very rich -- there's seemingly no real middle ground for average middle income families to live downtown. MAYBE NYC, SF, or some of those cities large urban centers, but not the Minneapolis', Seattles, Denvers of the world!

New York City and San Francisco have the most expensive housing in the country, so that's probably not a great example. There aren't too many households with two kids making $55,000 a year anywhere in Manhattan, and probably not much in the outer boroughs either.

That said there's definitely a big gap in housing prices in our downtown. I always like to plug my building because it is a great middle ground...$900 a month in Loring Park is enough to live in a nice building with grownups but not have to make $100K a year yourself. But to my knowledge there aren't many buildings like that.

[helsinki]

All excellent points.

I think there is probably a more sizable demand for these units than developers realize. For instance, lawyers tend to marry each other. Such households immediately have $250k plus in income. There are a lot of lawyers downtown. And bankers. And architects. Indeed, downtown is where most professionals (with the exception of doctors) have their offices in large numbers (and even then there's HCMC). These people have super stressful jobs with very long hours. The last thing they want is to drive 30 minutes to get home. For a lawyer, that's one hour per day they could've billed a client $800.

Professionals, especially millenials, generally dislike the burbs in my experience. If when they had kids they could stay centrally located, my guess is that most would. Cost isn't the issue; schools are.

[mplsjaromir]

People tend to overestimate how much people make. The following per Wikipedia:

The Manhattan ZIP Code 10021, on the Upper East Side is home to more than 100,000 people and has a per capita income of over $90,000. It is one of the largest concentrations of extreme wealth in the United States. Most Manhattan neighborhoods are not as wealthy. The median income for a household in the county was $47,030, and the median income for a family was $50,229. Males had a median income of $51,856 versus $45,712 for females. The per capita income for the county was $42,922. About 17.6% of families and 20% of the population were below the poverty line, including 31.8% of those under age 18 and 18.9% of those age 65 or over.

This is even more pronounced in the outer boroughs.

[MNdible]

All excellent points.

I think there is probably a more sizable demand for these units than developers realize. For instance, lawyers tend to marry each other. Such households immediately have $250k plus in income. There are a lot of lawyers downtown. And bankers. And architects. Indeed, downtown is where most professionals (with the exception of doctors) have their offices in large numbers (and even then there's HCMC). These people have super stressful jobs with very long hours. The last thing they want is to drive 30 minutes to get home. For a lawyer, that's one hour per day they could've billed a client $800.

Professionals, especially millenials, generally dislike the burbs in my experience. If when they had kids they could stay centrally located, my guess is that most would. Cost isn't the issue; schools are.

Some people may want the downtown condo lifestyle, good for them. My point, really, is that most of the 3BR units in these building tend to be high buck units (often penthouses), and are more likely owned by wealthy DINKs who can better take advantage of the urban lifestyle.

The commute to SW Minneapolis is a breezy 15 minutes and has good schools, and as I said before, you can get an awfully nice house for $600k.

[Nathan]

All excellent points.

I think there is probably a more sizable demand for these units than developers realize. For instance, lawyers tend to marry each other. Such households immediately have $250k plus in income. There are a lot of lawyers downtown. And bankers. And architects. Indeed, downtown is where most professionals (with the exception of doctors) have their offices in large numbers (and even then there's HCMC). These people have super stressful jobs with very long hours. The last thing they want is to drive 30 minutes to get home. For a lawyer, that's one hour per day they could've billed a client $800.

Professionals, especially millenials, generally dislike the burbs in my experience. If when they had kids they could stay centrally located, my guess is that most would. Cost isn't the issue; schools are.

Some people may want the downtown condo lifestyle, good for them. My point, really, is that most of the 3BR units in these building tend to be high buck units (often penthouses), and are more likely owned by wealthy DINKs who can better take advantage of the urban lifestyle.

The commute to SW Minneapolis is a breezy 15 minutes and has good schools, and as I said before, you can get an awfully nice house for $600k.

Understandably, there are some things that need to be worked on, but they whole idea is re-ubanization. Changing the paradigms of people to see the benefit of urban lifestyles, density, and the investments in the mpls school system. Obviously it's a slow charge. I think being able to maintain all sorts of people from families, to students, to low income, to single recent graduates is imperative. Diversity is the key to long term success, and I'm glad that there are a few developers who see that and are at least allowing for it.

I mean on crazy fantasy status, how awesome would it be to see the MPS have to open a new school in one of the DT neighborhoods... Get rid of another surface lot and make it that much more livable.

[Nick]

People tend to overestimate how much people make. The following per Wikipedia:

The Manhattan ZIP Code 10021, on the Upper East Side is home to more than 100,000 people and has a per capita income of over $90,000. It is one of the largest concentrations of extreme wealth in the United States. Most Manhattan neighborhoods are not as wealthy. The median income for a household in the county was $47,030, and the median income for a family was $50,229. Males had a median income of $51,856 versus $45,712 for females. The per capita income for the county was $42,922. About 17.6% of families and 20% of the population were below the poverty line, including 31.8% of those under age 18 and 18.9% of those age 65 or over.

This is even more pronounced in the outer boroughs.

True, but keep in mind wealth someone has and the income someone earns annually can be very different, especially in a place like New York City. Likewise, also keep in mind how much statistics are distorted by extremes. Lots of investment bankers in New York City, but there are also lots of people in public housing earning little to no income. Manhattan by itself has tens of thousands of public units and the outer boroughs have much more.

Anywho, a little offtopic, I agree with your original premise that there's not much middle-income housing in Downtown Minneapolis or downtowns.

[Andrew_F]

I think it's worth noting that there aren't really any new construction middle income high-rises anywhere. If enough new ones go up, the older dated towers will be forced to drop a few hundred. Another thing to consider is that in cities that are a little more dense, you have neighborhoods with old brownstones in good condition that have a relatively high proportion of families with kids in the home.

[John]

Building middle class housing is not profitable at all for developers in big cities. To make money you either have to build something very high end or receive government subsidies to build "affordable" or low income housing. I think that's why more middle class housing ( in the last 30 years) has been built on the periphery of urban areas, where land costs, etc are much lower and you can just simply dig up farm field. A friend of mine in San Francisco told me that in his city there has been some subsidized "affordable" projects that have been developed to attract middle income people. Of course, in SF the cost of housing is astronomical.

[Andrew_F]

Yes, usually middle income people are dependent on older buildings in good condition for high density housing. That's why places like NYC and SF have instituted rent control-- because the land values are so high that even older buildings would rise above most people's means. Obviously Minneapolis is nowhere near that point.

[min-chi-cbus]

I think it's worth noting that there aren't really any new construction middle income high-rises anywhere. If enough new ones go up, the older dated towers will be forced to drop a few hundred. Another thing to consider is that in cities that are a little more dense, you have neighborhoods with old brownstones in good condition that have a relatively high proportion of families with kids in the home.

I guess I thought Skyscape was more "middle-tier", and that might be an example of what that might look like --
Prices starting at below $200K, penthouses peak at around $450K.

[SixOneTwo]

Sorry to intrude on this conversation, but I have some Park Vista news. The backhoes have been moved to the center of the lot, it looks like work is about to begin here.

Now, carry on...

[lordmoke]

Haha, great to hear! I'm sure he's salivating at this news as well: Phoenix just sold out.

http://finance-commerce.com/2012/11/jus ... er-condos/

[min-chi-cbus]

Sorry to intrude on this conversation, but I have some Park Vista news. The backhoes have been moved to the center of the lot, it looks like work is about to begin here.

Now, carry on...

How dare you!