Historic Preservation

[FISHMANPET]

There's been a lot of talk about preservation in the 2320 Colfax thread, but that battle is hopefully over, and we can move onto bigger and better things. But I'm sure we can still talk about historic preservation.

And so I'll start this thread, since I came across this article about a new National Historic Landmark:
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/techno ... mark/8971/

[twincitizen]

Good reporting on a really minute thing that the Mpls City Council will be voting on soon: http://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy ... storic-pre

[mattaudio]

I hope they can find middle ground between setting a precedent and having him throw away brand new windows. If it's $100k for him to replace the windows, how about something like a $20-40k fine/settlement (in addition to adding the muntins as proposed) which could go towards something to improve historic preservation. Maybe it could help reduce the staff backlog for HPC studies. Maybe it could add capital to a revolving loan fund for historic preservation. Doesn't matter to me. But this would provide the HPC cover to say a precedent has not been set, would avoid throwing away brand new windows which seems extremely wasteful. It would hit Adam Lerner in the pocketbook in a very real way, but the money would seem to go much further towards historic preservation elsewhere in the city.

[mattaudio]

Windows get me, big time. And it's so sad what we've done to windows in the name of energy efficiency and reduced maintenance costs.

In the 60s-80s, many urban warehouses, small-town storefronts, schools, etc had an energy crisis retrofit where huge classic windows were framed in, covered with painted plywood or other really cheap materials, and replaced with tiny vinyl/metal crapholes. An example was that nondescript warehouse that just came down for the new Vikings parking ramp. http://goo.gl/maps/DrpT3

In the 80s-90s, many buildings had their windows replaced with inoperable, high-reflectivity plate glass. One of the most egregious examples is on Prior Ave in St. Paul near I-94. http://goo.gl/maps/Fceyg The only decent thing is that the full opening size was usually maintained. But that's about all I can say that was good about this type of retrofit.

At least we're better at appreciating large windows, and technology has improved to allow for large, energy efficient windows without reflectivity.

[David Greene]

Good reporting on a really minute thing that the Mpls City Council will be voting on soon: http://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy ... storic-pre

Great article. We reconditioned our windows rather than replacing them . The wood in those old windows is a great insulator and with good storm windows (aluminum or wood storms) they are pretty energy efficient. We had all of our sashes removed, weatherstripped, new ropes put on and reinstalled with new locks. Locks are actually a very important piece of the energy efficiency strategy because when closed they pull the sashes together at the meeting rails, sealing the gap. We had new aluminum storm windows put on to replace the 1950's-era aluminum storm windows that were there (unfortunately, the original wood storms were nowhere to be found). Importantly, the installers put silicone sealer on the storm windows before installing them, ensuring the seams were airtight.

The only thing we didn't do was remove the ropes and pulleys and install a modern friction-based system (which can be done with old windows). Filling the weight pockets would insulate a bit better but I just really like the look and function of rope and pulley systems.

The result was amazing. Not only does the house stay warmer longer, the ambient noise decreased dramatically. And they look fantastic!

[David Greene]

I hope they can find middle ground between setting a precedent and having him throw away brand new windows

Do they really have to be thrown away? I'm sure some other building could use them.

[mattaudio]

I need new storms for piano windows. Any suggestions, David or others?

[David Greene]

Windows get me, big time. And it's so sad what we've done to windows in the name of energy efficiency and reduced maintenance costs.

So true! What's even sadder is that generally they are not the biggest source of heat loss. Attics and basements win that award. Attics for the obvious reason that heat rises and escapes from the top. Basements because in a lot of houses the cold air rushing in to replace the hot air is coming through the basement rim joists.

http://www.familyhandyman.com/basement/ ... s/view-all

Doors are another big offender. A lot of people miss the gap between the bottom of the door and the floor.

[lordmoke]

As a commenter mentioned, going through the Google Street View history is pretty jarring. Completely wrecks the building.

Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse to break it.

[mister.shoes]

Not only that, but he didn't even bother getting a building permit. I mean, really?

[MNdible]

If you read through the full documentation available in the city record, it's pretty clear that he went ahead with replacing the windows with full knowledge that it would not be approved by the HPC. This was a deliberate attempt to avoid the Historic District requirements, not an accidental oversight.

Given that, I think making an example of him is absolutely appropriate.

[seanrichardryan]

@Matt , Siwek on NE Marshall and AA Woodwork on Hiawatha both make good wood storms. If they're piano windows, go with a wood storm, it will look best.

[mister.shoes]

I've gotten custom door/window casing from AA Millwork. They're good people and do a fine job. It's not cheap, nor should it be.

[mister.shoes]

Speaking of custom millwork, Ferche up in Rice does a very nice job as well. I used them for my baseboard instead of AA because they didn't have the additional custom knife charge that AA does (my casing profile was already in AA's catalog). The only catch is that you can't go to Ferche directly; you have to work with a vendor. In my case, I used Mathew Hall Lumber up in St. Cloud because my father-in-law has a contractor relationship with them. I'm sure Ferche has plenty of vendors down here, though, as they're a huge shop.

[seanrichardryan]

AA always seemed to 'lose' my custom knife until I made them look again.

[David Greene]

@Matt , Siwek on NE Marshall and AA Woodwork on Hiawatha both make good wood storms. If they're piano windows, go with a wood storm, it will look best.

We probably would have made new wood storms if we'd known about the option back when we reconditioned the windows. Maybe in another 10 years.

Siwek and A&A are your go-to places for replicating historic woodwork. For some pieces getting them at salvage is a better option. Bauer Brothers has tons of stuff but it's a pain in the ass to sort through. Gilded Salvage has a smaller selection but has a nice display where they show you the difference designs they have. And the people at Gilded are great to talk to about your project!

[David Greene]

A question about custom knives. We're almost certainly going to need one made if/when we restore the millwork on our second floor. Generally, if you have one made do you "own" the knife in the sense that they can use it again for later projects? Are others able to use the custom knife you had made?

mister.shoes, do you mean that Ferche had the profile in their catalog, because you said AA had it in their catalog so it doesn't make sense they'd charge you for a knife.

What's the best way to find out what's in Ferche's catalog or anyone's catalog for that matter? A&A has theirs online but I haven't seen that anywhere else. I would love more references to places to go for millwork.

[mister.shoes]

IIRC, at AA the custom knife shows up in their catalog for others to use even though you paid for it. Which isn't a big deal, because it does mean that you can use it again

As for Ferche, I think they have some sort of "knifeless" process. I specifically asked them about having to pay for a custom knife and they said it wasn't necessary. When they sent me a proof of my profile prior to manufacturing, it came as a PDF exported from a CAD program. I can't say this with certainty, but it sure appeared that they had a different way of milling the profiles compared to AA.

I had a devil of a time finding catalogs for most places I looked, which is one reason why I ended up at AA: their online catalog is great. I believe this is the best Ferche can do for a catalog online. Given my experience with them and custom profiles, a catalog almost seems pointless for those of us who are extremely dedicated to matching existing millwork: skip the stock, go straight to custom.

[David Greene]

I came home from work to my wife watching Twin Cities Live. I walked in just as they were starting a segment on a window replacement project done on Elizabeth Ries' house. I cried inside and my wife and I talked about what a terrible decision she made.

She has a 1929 house and replaced all of her original windows with vinyl. Of course the representative from Window Concepts of Minnesota said how great it was and how much more energy efficient the new windows would be. He even pulled out the safety angle, talking about how modern, thick glass panes would prevent burglaries (and also justified a new steel front door).

New windows cost a lot more than reconditioning your original windows and reconditioning gets you almost all of the energy savings new windows achieve. It's not worth the cost/benefit to replace windows and by replacing them you are removing essential character from your home and quite possibly lowering its value. "Reporting" like this is borderline fraud.

[seanrichardryan]

*shudder*

I painstakingly restored all the windows at my house in the Wedge and was pleasantly surprised by the results. I took about a year of weekends etc. for 22 big windows. Paint, pulleys, weather stripping, etc. Total cost was probably around $800. I also refurbed the original 1 3/4" white oak door that works and looks better than any steel replacement could. The glass on it was a good 1/4 thick!