Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

[Trademark]

There's a reason for everything, folks. And the reason why a station at 38th St wasn't ever considered as part of *this highway construction project* is because our Regional Transitway Guidelines call for highway BRT to have stations every 2 miles.

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And referring again to that lovely Met Council document, there's even a specific criteria for highway BRT that doesn't apply to other modes: "Minimum Distance between Minneapolis/St. Paul Central Business Districts and Next Station: 1 mile or longer".

[...]

As far as 35W/36 to Roseville, yeah I'm absolutely concerned that there would potentially be only a single station in Minneapolis city limits outside of downtown.

I think you could fit two in with those restrictions, at 4th/University and Stinson/Quarry, which I think are the natural choices. I'd be fine with one at Hennepin and/or Broadway as well, but I don't think just having those two would be dire.

The 36 BRT will most likely turn south at 280 to hit the U of M based on the documents that I've seen.

[Hero]

There's a reason for everything, folks. And the reason why a station at 38th St wasn't ever considered as part of *this highway construction project* is because our Regional Transitway Guidelines call for highway BRT to have stations every 2 miles. Someone should probably talk to Met Council about changing this: https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... px#page=28

Interesting. Guess this only applies to Minneapolis? The two stations on Knox avenue are within two miles of 66th and I don't even think they are a half mile apart from each other.

If these guidelines only apply to Minneapolis it would explain why the Blue line has stations one mile apart yet Bloomington can stuff four stations in about a mile? It is borderline ridiculous how tightly packed Blue line stations are in Bloomington.

Where else can you live in a building that has an LRT platform on each side?

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8571573 ... 3?hl=en-GB

[Mdcastle]

The other thing is that MnDOT wasn't keen to build anything fancy and permanent at 38th since they couldn't reach a consensus with the community on the 35th / 36th ramps- either moving them to 38th or spending a lot more money and probably taking ROW to braid them where they are. The new Lake and 28th ramps mitigated the issue a bit, but it's still in their long term thinking to fix the issue right when and if there's money and a community consensus. And 46th-31st was a quick fix, just put new pavement in place of the old payment in the exact same place since the old pavement wasn't going to last until a more comprehensive rebuild that was done on the rest of the corridor could be funded. Including the substandard lane widths, lack of shoulders, and bridge pillars in the clear zone.

As for the Blue line, it seems the stations are "pretty tightly packed" in downtown Minneapolis to.

[Trademark]

The other thing is that MnDOT wasn't keen to build anything fancy and permanent at 38th since they couldn't reach a consensus with the community on the 35th / 36th ramps- either moving them to 38th or spending a lot more money and probably taking ROW to braid them where they are. The new Lake and 28th ramps mitigated the issue a bit, but it's still in their long term thinking to fix the issue right when and if there's money and a community consensus. And 46th-31st was a quick fix, just put new pavement in place of the old payment in the exact same place since the old pavement wasn't going to last until a more comprehensive rebuild that was done on the rest of the corridor could be funded. Including the substandard lane widths, lack of shoulders, and bridge pillars in the clear zone.

As for the Blue line, it seems the stations are "pretty tightly packed" in downtown Minneapolis to.

Wasn't this section a complete rebuild though? I highly doubt that there will be another south Minneapolis 35W complete rebuild project in the next 30 years. Yes some of the lanes are substandard but it's still a functional freeway. With capacity to spare.

[Mdcastle]

Moving the ramps to 38th or braiding the 35th ramps won't require disrupting the new 60 year mainline pavement, at least not much.

I wouldn't characterize it as a "complete rebuild" as much as "pavement replacement". They didn't change the footprint and completely rebuild all the overpasses.

[Trademark]

Moving the ramps to 38th or braiding the 35th ramps won't require disrupting the new 60 year mainline pavement, at least not much.

I wouldn't characterize it as a "complete rebuild" as much as "pavement replacement". They didn't change the footprint and completely rebuild all the overpasses.

It doesn't necessarily need a complete rebuild and the pedestrian/bike bridge at 40th and the 38th was rebuilt. The huge new storm water treatment tanks near 42nd were a major project. So it's really jus the bridges of 35th, 36th, and 42nd that weren't rebuilt. Im guessing if it was needed they would have been rebuilt. I'm not denying that there won't be little projects that spring up. But do you think there will be a future project that changes the footprint?

[BoredAgain]

Having a bus station at 38th should never have been linked to moving the freeway ramps. Bus stations serve communities in the immediate vicinity. Freeway ramps can destroy them. I live near the existing exit and the traffic that the ramps create is considerable. The new off-ramp to Lake relieved some of the traffic, but all of the North-bound traffic still comes to 35th. Moving all of the existing traffic to 38th would be terrible for that street.

[Mdcastle]

40th and 38th apparently reused the old foundations, so even those weren't complete rebuilds.

Point I'm trying to make is that MnDOT has said that nothing they've done precludes a permanent fix for the ramp problem, just that they've made it less bad with the current project and are punting a permanent fix down the road indefinitely.

[MNdible]

Not that it really makes much difference, but I believe that 38th even reused the old bridge piers (along with foundations and embankments). It's barely a new bridge, and the locations of the piers remain problematic.

40th, on the other hand, is definitely an all new bridge with different pier and embankment locations.

[DanPatchToget]

Since it hasn't even been a month since the Orange Line started I'm guessing we won't have ridership data for it soon, but when can we expect to get that? Would be nice to know how it's going, and would especially be nice to get ridership data for each station. Also anyone know if they reported on ridership for the two fare-free days?

[thespeedmccool]

I actually saw some preliminary info in a Met Council meeting packet. I want to say the number was 800-1000 per day. Don't quote me on that.

[Oreos&Milk]

The Orange Line isn't the only bus that uses the E-ZPass lanes and the E-ZPass lanes, including the new southbound one just built, would exist without the Orange Line. So no, it's not accurate to include them in the cost.

I'm also not sure why we think 98th Street is a more suitable end for the Orange Line than Heart of the City. Bloomington's grandiose plans for the area are just vaporware right now- I don't see a bunch of developers clamoring to build cute mixed use stuff in place of all the strip malls right now- and and the Lakewinds Co-op which the developer can probably build by-right will cement in low intensity land use on half of Clover Center for decades, and once motorists cross the river they're probably just going to keep driving to downtown rather than pull off at 98th Street and park.

To be honest heart of Burnsville station is just a very nicely wrapped park and ride station. It should be an example for the rest of our park and rides to wrap them in nice development and places to shop. Also long term they definitely need a tunnel for commuters crossing 13 from the big ramp to the station. That’s long term like for the next major hwy 13 rebuild.

All park and rides should be built a few blocks from the actual station and building a walking friendly neighborhood to said station filled with dense housing and retail and such. Then it gives that area a chance to expand on that walking friendly neighborhood down the line.

The lakeville park and ride to be specific has no hope for such a great opportunity to build anything like that but the one in Blaine at 95th is a great opportunity.

[Mdcastle]

The Nicollet Ave intersection is being looked at, one option is an at-grade intersection with 6 lanes for Highway 13 with a pedestrian overpass, and the other two options are 4 lanes for highway 13 with an interchange, both of which would include roundabouts. Chatter from Burnsville is they favor one of the interchange options.

I don't think making people walk a few blocks through the blazing sun, heat and humidity, cold, rain, snow and slush from their cars to the bus is going to encourage ridership. It strikes me as the same paternalistic "Go play outside kids, even if you want to, it's good for you" mentality that characterizes the skyway haters. It doesn't make sense to spend what we've just been discussing about how much these lines cost and then deliberately making the inconvenient for people to use.

[DanPatchToget]

The parking ramp closest to the station at Heart of the City is one block away. Not sure if park & riders can use it but I don't see why not. It's not like that area has limited parking, and it's an acceptable walking distance from your car to the Orange Line stop. Fort Snelling Station has a park & ride lot that's one-third of a mile from the station, and the distance is the same from the second parking ramp at Heart of the City to the Orange Line stop.

[Bakken2016]

The parking ramp closest to the station at Heart of the City is one block away. Not sure if park & riders can use it but I don't see why not. It's not like that area has limited parking, and it's an acceptable walking distance from your car to the Orange Line stop. Fort Snelling Station has a park & ride lot that's one-third of a mile from the station, and the distance is the same from the second parking ramp at Heart of the City to the Orange Line stop.

Yes, Metro Transit and Burnsville agree to allow people to park there.


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[Tcmetro]

Given that there's no capacity issues at the Burnsville Transit Station because of Covid, it's better to just park there and take the direct expresses that are more frequent at peak and reasonably frequent during the day (every 30 mins).

[Bakken2016]

Given that there's no capacity issues at the Burnsville Transit Station because of Covid, it's better to just park there and take the direct expresses that are more frequent at peak and reasonably frequent during the day (every 30 mins).

That applies to only weekdays. Weekends the Orange Line is the only option. Also, not everyone will use the Orange Line to go downtown.


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[Mdcastle]

Yeah, I get that maybe someone from Richfield in those apartments off Lyndale and 66th will use it to get to their job at the new Chipotle Drive-thru they want to build in Heart of the City. But let's not pretend this is some kind of revolution for the Monday to Friday downtown commuter like real rail would be. If it's one bus vs another bus, might as well take an express bus like before. And in fact with the 535 going away it's actually detrimental to a lot of M-F bus commuters; the 535 actually stopped a couple of houses away from me and near a lot of people in Bloomington but now the Orange Line is limited to the freeway and is a full 3/4s of a mile away.

[DanPatchToget]

Observations from my first ride on the Orange Line and Orange Link a couple hours ago:
-I was the only rider from South Bloomington TC to downtown
-didn't see anyone waiting at the southbound platforms
-saw one southbound Orange Line bus with at least a few people on it
-I really like that the Orange Line platforms at 5th Street are right by the light rail platforms
-going back south I was the only rider from downtown to Heart of the City, saw one person at South Bloomington TC waiting for a northbound bus and one person got on at Heart of the City
-no other riders on the entire roundtrip on the Orange Link
-perhaps MVTA should consider a short extension of the Orange Link to Buck Hill and advertise it as a ski bus service, wouldn't hurt to try at least
-when I got on a northbound Orange Line bus at Heart of the City one person got off, and then at Travelers Trail a person got off with their bike
-when I got off at South Bloomington TC one person got on

The ridership observations are of course not necessarily reflective of every Orange Line and Orange Link trip, and I very much hope they're not. It would be quite embarrassing if the Orange Line's ridership is worse than the 535.

From a service standpoint the Orange Line is pretty good. I didn't have to wait long for a bus and the trips were quick, though it helps when there's no one to pick up or drop off.

[SurlyLHT]

Observations from my first ride on the Orange Line and Orange Link a couple hours ago:
-I was the only rider from South Bloomington TC to downtown
-didn't see anyone waiting at the southbound platforms
-saw one southbound Orange Line bus with at least a few people on it
-I really like that the Orange Line platforms at 5th Street are right by the light rail platforms
-going back south I was the only rider from downtown to Heart of the City, saw one person at South Bloomington TC waiting for a northbound bus and one person got on at Heart of the City
-no other riders on the entire roundtrip on the Orange Link
-perhaps MVTA should consider a short extension of the Orange Link to Buck Hill and advertise it as a ski bus service, wouldn't hurt to try at least
-when I got on a northbound Orange Line bus at Heart of the City one person got off, and then at Travelers Trail a person got off with their bike
-when I got off at South Bloomington TC one person got on

The ridership observations are of course not necessarily reflective of every Orange Line and Orange Link trip, and I very much hope they're not. It would be quite embarrassing if the Orange Line's ridership is worse than the 535.

From a service standpoint the Orange Line is pretty good. I didn't have to wait long for a bus and the trips were quick, though it helps when there's no one to pick up or drop off.

You rode it mid day? It would be interesting to have insights from someone who commuted with it. With that said, this is a BRT line, not Express bus. There should be a decent number of riders throughout the day. I have never seen the C Line that empty once.