Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

[Trademark]

Observations from my first ride on the Orange Line and Orange Link a couple hours ago:
-I was the only rider from South Bloomington TC to downtown
-didn't see anyone waiting at the southbound platforms
-saw one southbound Orange Line bus with at least a few people on it
-I really like that the Orange Line platforms at 5th Street are right by the light rail platforms
-going back south I was the only rider from downtown to Heart of the City, saw one person at South Bloomington TC waiting for a northbound bus and one person got on at Heart of the City
-no other riders on the entire roundtrip on the Orange Link
-perhaps MVTA should consider a short extension of the Orange Link to Buck Hill and advertise it as a ski bus service, wouldn't hurt to try at least
-when I got on a northbound Orange Line bus at Heart of the City one person got off, and then at Travelers Trail a person got off with their bike
-when I got off at South Bloomington TC one person got on

The ridership observations are of course not necessarily reflective of every Orange Line and Orange Link trip, and I very much hope they're not. It would be quite embarrassing if the Orange Line's ridership is worse than the 535.

From a service standpoint the Orange Line is pretty good. I didn't have to wait long for a bus and the trips were quick, though it helps when there's no one to pick up or drop off.

You rode it mid day? It would be interesting to have insights from someone who commuted with it. With that said, this is a BRT line, not Express bus. There should be a decent number of riders throughout the day. I have never seen the C Line that empty once.

I view the orange line as a long term investment. If/when the connecting services are improved and land use around the stations are too this line will become great. An aBRT line on 66th and 46th. And the B line would really make this route come alive.

[alexschief]

I don't want to be Pollyannaish, ridership on the Orange Line may well end up disappointing. But mid-day on December 21st during a pandemic surge is probably not the best time to gauge its success or failure.

[DanPatchToget]

I agree that reporting the ridership of a few trips doesn't determine the overall ridership of the Orange Line, but midday on a weekday should have at least a few riders on each trip. Ridership is down on the aBRT and LRT routes because of the pandemic but there's still a decent number of people using them throughout the day, not just rush hour.

It doesn't help that the 465 still operates all day in both directions, so it can take away potential riders from the Orange Line in Burnsville and South Bloomington TC. I don't know the ridership data for the 465, but it seems like with the Orange Line now operating the 465 should be reduced to a rush hour-only service that bypasses downtown and goes straight to/from the U.

Another problem, one that's major for the Orange Line and future BRT routes, is our highways weren't designed with BRT in mind. The development along our highways, especially outside the urban area, also wasn't planned with BRT in mind. If cities and the Met Council want these BRT routes to get good ridership then they have to seriously beef up population and job density around the stations.

[SurlyLHT]

I was trying to find the projected ridership. Instead I found this related document.

https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... report.pdf

[Nick]

Allowing smoking could increase the midday ridership

[Bakken2016]

Allowing smoking could increase the midday ridership

???


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[Hero]

I was trying to find the projected ridership. Instead I found this related document.

https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... report.pdf

Looking for this?

https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... deling.pdf

I don't know how believable this is. Guess we are lucky Lake street even has a station or that there isn't a station between 76th and American.

[Hero]

I view the orange line as a long term investment. If/when the connecting services are improved and land use around the stations are too this line will become great. An aBRT line on 66th and 46th. And the B line would really make this route come alive.

66th already has high frequency transit with the 515 so we should get an idea of ridership with a BRT. 46th on the other hand only has half hour service for route 46 (just upgraded to no weekend service) and route 11 really isn't a feeder for anyone not within waling distance.

[Hero]

I wish they would have spent more in south Minneapolis. Heck, I would trade the fancy Lake street station for three 46th st style stations at 38th, Lake and Franklin. And maybe Diamond Lake with a new route along 54th?

The fancy lake street has so many crucial amenities. The fact that it blocks wind much better then any light rail station I've waited at. The split platforms so that the bus doesn't slow down to an absolute crawl trying to get through the station. And the long platforms which is crucial to keep up with the demand during peak periods (if/when) the express routes return. And it would have always been more expensive just due to the fact that it's elevated which raises the price just on its own.

Franklin due to right of way from everything I heard would have made it extremely difficult to build a station. Although I agree it would have been awesome to have a station there.

It looks like about 120ft for the 6 lanes in the center sections under the Franklin bridge. Couldn't we use one lane in each direction for I94 on and off ramps, one lane in each direction to and from downtown and one lane in each direction for dedicated transit with a platform?

[DanPatchToget]

If this hasn't been done already, it would be nice to survey Orange Line riders who used the previous Route 535, especially riders who now have to transfer instead of a direct trip like students going to/from Normandale College.

[Mdcastle]

Wonder how many 535 rides are going to switch to the Orange Line, and how many are going to switch to driving because of how much more inconvenient the Orange Line is for them?

[Tcmetro]

The 535 struck me as a route largely used by transit-dependent riders so I would imagine ridership will be similar. When I took the 535, the ridership was largely centered around Normandale College, the 94th & James Industrial Park, and the Southtown area.

[Bakken2016]

I just chatted with a lady who lives near the 76th and Knox Station and she uses the Orange Line to get to Burnsville Center for a job at Macys, which wouldn’t have been possibly before without a super long convoluted transit trip.


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[DanPatchToget]

Wonder how many 535 rides are going to switch to the Orange Line, and how many are going to switch to driving because of how much more inconvenient the Orange Line is for them?

Are you saying the Orange Line is less convenient than the 535 for all trips that were made on the latter route? Because if so that seems a bit generalized. Just like with the A Line, C Line, and Green Line some trips on the predecessor routes are now less convenient, but overall it should be more convenient. The Orange Line should've existed years ago; I know it would've had way higher ridership if it began in the early 2010s. The 465 was near-crush loads going to the U in the morning and back in the evening, so the Orange Line's 60-foot buses and Green Line to the U would be a much desired alternative to getting crushed on MVTA's 40-foot buses. Also I remember seeing students get off the northbound 465 at South Bloomington TC and just miss their 539 or 535 bus to take them to Normandale. With the high frequency of the Orange Line there would've been trips scheduled for a quick and easy transfer to get to Normandale.

[Korh]

Speaking as someone who used to take the 535 regularly to normandale, looking on the schedule off of google maps the orange line doesn't seem it would of made my commute easier since the time savings are mostly undercut by having to wait for a transfer to the 539 and iirc the 539 still only runs every half an hour.
I remember wishing that normandale would try making a shuttle just going to Bloomington TC and back to match the orange lines frequency when added to the 539 but there's probably a list of reasons why that be hard to implement.
Although my commute to normandale was a bit longer than most, it was usually take a bus from the western burbs, transfer at uptown and either go north to downtown, go east to lake, or sometimes even go south to southdale.

[Bakken2016]

Speaking as someone who used to take the 535 regularly to normandale, looking on the schedule off of google maps the orange line doesn't seem it would of made my commute easier since the time savings are mostly undercut by having to wait for a transfer to the 539 and iirc the 539 still only runs every half an hour.
I remember wishing that normandale would try making a shuttle just going to Bloomington TC and back to match the orange lines frequency when added to the 539 but there's probably a list of reasons why that be hard to implement.
Although my commute to normandale was a bit longer than most, it was usually take a bus from the western burbs, transfer at uptown and either go north to downtown, go east to lake, or sometimes even go south to southdale.

So you have to remember that not every single 535 went to Normandale, only about every 30 mins. And I just planned 2 trips for a trip between Lake St Station and Normandale College, that wait between is only 6-10 mins. If we truly want rapid transit, we need to make those types of tradeoffs.

[DanPatchToget]

Speaking as someone who used to take the 535 regularly to normandale, looking on the schedule off of google maps the orange line doesn't seem it would of made my commute easier since the time savings are mostly undercut by having to wait for a transfer to the 539 and iirc the 539 still only runs every half an hour.
I remember wishing that normandale would try making a shuttle just going to Bloomington TC and back to match the orange lines frequency when added to the 539 but there's probably a list of reasons why that be hard to implement.
Although my commute to normandale was a bit longer than most, it was usually take a bus from the western burbs, transfer at uptown and either go north to downtown, go east to lake, or sometimes even go south to southdale.

Keep in mind while Route 539 still only runs half-hourly, they modified the route so it makes a straight shot between Normandale College and South Bloomington on 98th Street, so the trip is a lot quicker (only 8 minutes). They also added Route 546, which also runs every half hour, and goes between South Bloomington and Normandale Village via Valley West and Normandale College.

This option would take longer and it only runs hourly, but you could also take the Orange Line to Knox & American and transfer to a south/westbound 534 to Normandale College.

Whether all these options will survive the near-term remains to be seen, but I hope so. Without convenient and easy transfers to/from local transit it'll be a lot more difficult for the Orange Line's suburban stations to get riders.

[Mdcastle]

I'm sure some of the 535 riders will find it more convenient- the ones that live right next to the freeway. But how many of them does that apply to? A lot of Bloomington just lost a limited stop, don't have to get out in the elements again ride to Normandale, Lyndale Ave, City Hall and the nearby industrial area, and Downtown. How is the Orange line more convenient to those people.

[Korh]

Speaking as someone who used to take the 535 regularly to normandale, looking on the schedule off of google maps the orange line doesn't seem it would of made my commute easier since the time savings are mostly undercut by having to wait for a transfer to the 539 and iirc the 539 still only runs every half an hour.
I remember wishing that normandale would try making a shuttle just going to Bloomington TC and back to match the orange lines frequency when added to the 539 but there's probably a list of reasons why that be hard to implement.
Although my commute to normandale was a bit longer than most, it was usually take a bus from the western burbs, transfer at uptown and either go north to downtown, go east to lake, or sometimes even go south to southdale.

So you have to remember that not every single 535 went to Normandale, only about every 30 mins. And I just planned 2 trips for a trip between Lake St Station and Normandale College, that wait between is only 6-10 mins. If we truly want rapid transit, we need to make those types of tradeoffs.

Oh I know that was just my view if I was still commuting from home
Although I think it looks a bit faster if I was going from my old work (near Burnsville center) to Normandale since there was always a decent wait when transferring from the 444 to the 465 and it does seem easier to bring your bike along since its alot easier to get from the greenway to the new lakestreet station (although biking on 98th street between Normandale and Bloomington TC is still not very fun)

[Tcmetro]

A 30 minute frequency is sufficient for Normandale because the vast majority of the classes start at the :00 and :30 and end at the :20 and :50.

Turning a one-seat ride into a two-seat ride always adds an element of unpredictability. I recall that the 539 had significant on-time issues compared to the 535.