Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

[Mdcastle]

I just wanted to say there's no implications in my Avatar, it's just a neon Don't Walk sign that I own that I think is cool and doesn't have anything to do with my opinions. When I get back from vacation I'll take a picture of my art deco Walk light just to give the phases equal time.

[mulad]

I do think the free right off northbound I-35W is dangerous. Not because it's not "walkable" or pedestrians aren't watching for cars there, but because you can't really see traffic coming because of the wall on the bridge, and I've seen several traffic accidents there.. That would be fixed by building a loop or converting to a SPUI.

Hmm. Google Streetview isn't the best way to discern that since the cameras are mounted on a tall pole, but the wall doesn't seem very high to me. I'd think that either removing the free-right or making it curve less (making that piece of the intersection closer to a right-angle) would make it easier to see traffic coming from the left. That's one of the problems with typical free-rights -- people have to crane their necks really far to see anything, but often end up ignoring that problem and just hope for the best as they speed around the curve.

The whole area could also use some shrubs/hedges/trees to make the area feel more enclosed and induce people to slow down. One neat trick I've seen is to have vegetation widely spaced down near the main highway but then progressively reduce the space in between them as you come up to an intersection.

I've only traveled overseas on a few brief trips, so I don't know if redisciple -- er, woofner -- is right to say that people around the world think we're crazy. However, I do think traffic engineering has often gotten to the point of trying to shave a few seconds regardless of how the overall speedup gets accomplished. There seem to be a lot of examples of suburban intersections where cycle times are up on the order of 2-3 minutes (and a few in the core cities too), but if you have smaller, narrower intersections, you can often get by with faster cycle times. There are some in Minneapolis which must go through an entire cycle in 40 seconds with an automatic pedestrian light included (no beg button required). You might not be getting across town quite as fast as you would on a big suburban arterial, but there is a sense of forward progress.

This is also one of the great things about things like roundabouts and shared-space intersections -- people get slowed down, but there is almost continuous motion to lessen the frustration that drivers get from waiting at stop lights. And once stop lights turn green (especially a green arrow), there's usually an inclination to speed ahead and damn the consequences if there's anything in your way -- an inclination that grows stronger the longer people are stuck in one spot.

Of course, different people react to this stuff in a variety of different ways. This is how I feel about it.

[mplsjaromir]

However, I do think traffic engineering has often gotten to the point of trying to shave a few seconds regardless of how the overall speedup gets accomplished. There seem to be a lot of examples of suburban intersections where cycle times are up on the order of 2-3 minutes (and a few in the core cities too), but if you have smaller, narrower intersections, you can often get by with faster cycle times. There are some in Minneapolis which must go through an entire cycle in 40 seconds with an automatic pedestrian light included (no beg button required). You might not be getting across town quite as fast as you would on a big suburban arterial, but there is a sense of forward progress.

Great point. Exactly how I feel. Dead time at suburban intersections is quite annoying.

[UptownSport]

I've only traveled overseas on a few brief trips, so I don't know if redisciple -- er, woofner -- is right to say that people around the world think we're crazy.

The Germans take their walk/don't walk signs seriously-
They have "für die Kinder" billboards (basically saying the reason you wait at the don't walk light isn't because they have invisible cars, but because a child might see you) asking you to do the German thing and anally obey the don't walk light.
If you blow the sign, as any good American does, they look at you as if you've just drowned a sack of kittens.

[talindsay]

I've only traveled overseas on a few brief trips, so I don't know if redisciple -- er, woofner -- is right to say that people around the world think we're crazy.

The Germans take their walk/don't walk signs seriously-
They have "für die Kinder" billboards (basically saying the reason you wait at the don't walk light isn't because they have invisible cars, but because a child might see you) asking you to do the German thing and anally obey the don't walk light.
If you blow the sign, as any good American does, they look at you as if you've just drowned a sack of kittens.

Yes, I also found it funny in Cologne (Germany) how people would wait at the don't walk signs when the street was empty. I would cross and a few would look nervous and follow, while the rest stood there.

By contrast, the French and Belgians readily ignore the signs like we do - small proof of my theory that we act more like the romance Europeans than the germanic ones, despite our cultural belief to the contrary.

And at the far other extreme, I'm not sure that the Dutch even know what a don't walk sign is for, or indeed even what the concept of pedestrians yielding to cars even is - they'll happily walk against the signal in front of cars, in mass, despite the drivers' clear and obvious right of way. Chaos reigns.

[orangevening]

The Germans take their walk/don't walk signs seriously-
They have "für die Kinder" billboards (basically saying the reason you wait at the don't walk light isn't because they have invisible cars, but because a child might see you) asking you to do the German thing and anally obey the don't walk light.
If you blow the sign, as any good American does, they look at you as if you've just drowned a sack of kittens.

Yes, I also found it funny in Cologne (Germany) how people would wait at the don't walk signs when the street was empty. I would cross and a few would look nervous and follow, while the rest stood there.[/quote]

Seattle has draconian laws against jaywalking. In downtown Seattle you can tell the difference between the locals and the tourists- the locals don't dare cross without a "walk" sign where tourists go for it (and often get a ticket). Once in downtown Minneapolis around bar close time I heard a young women ask a cop if it was ok to cross the street (she had a "don't walk", but the street was clear and other people were crossing). I overheard her say she was from Seattle and they would ticket her there if she did that. Cop here didn't care.

[mulad]

...unless it's the first week or two after school starts at the University of Minnesota.

[seanrichardryan]

...unless it's the first week or two after school starts at the University of Minnesota.

*shudder*

[RailBaronYarr]

Cops would hand out jaywalking tickets like crazy at Washington and Harvard when I was there.

[mattaudio]

Time for more mid-block refuge islands and less concern over jaywalking. With urban land uses and streets to match, it is oftentimes safer to cross mid-block with a refuge location than it is to cross at intersections which may be non-signalized or signalized with free-rights (let alone right turn pork chops like Bloomington has).

[mulad]

A public meeting is planned for October 3rd to discuss two possible alignments through/near the I-494/I-35W interchange.

http://www.metrotransit.org/orange-line-meetings

[twincitizen]

The Knox Ave option would actually be a tunnel, rather than a bridge, and it would be constructed in concert with the 35/494 interchange project.

Knox Ave alternative is far and away the superior option compared to an inline station at American Boulevard. Putting stations at Knox/76th and Knox/American would more than double the walk-shed capture (population and job-wise) and add a much needed connection in this area. Obviously it would mean a slightly slower running time, but this line has so few stations anyways, I don't think it's a real big deal considering the distance traveled. This has a real chance to be a very successful freeway-BRT line. I do wish we had gone with Gold & Silver Line naming for this and the Cedar BRT, saving the strong primary colors (i.e. Red) for our current & future rail network.

[woofner]

Why is no inline station being considered for 76th?

[mattaudio]

I dunno. I think if it was done right, they could do an inline station between 494 and American Blvd, and they could have skyway connections to Meridian Plaza and Best Buy.

[twincitizen]

That's not one of the choices though. And the Knox Avenue connection is a great idea for the area, even absent of the Orange Line. That's assuming it will be bike-ped accessible and not some weird bus-only tunnel. I should really do a screen cap of the slide showing the walk-shed comparison...it really sold me (obviously).

For once can we just not argue the minutiae and agree that the Knox option w/ dual stations is better than a single inline station at American? Apparently a Knox Ave bridge is not an option due to the greater height of the rebuilt 35/494 interchange ramps, so it would have to be a tunnel. Woofer pointed out earlier in this thread that an inline station at 76th is probably not feasible since it was never considered when that bridge was built. Yes, this would serve the west side of 35W and perhaps put things out of reach coming from Lyndale (3/4 mile instead of 1/2). However, it gets the stations out of the center of the highway and puts them closer to major destinations (Best Buy HQ, Penn-American district). The Lyndale-American area in Bloomington is an unwalkable mess of big box and car dealerships anyways. This alignment matches existing east-west local bus service as well, since there is existing all-day service on 76th and American. This Knox Ave tunnel option is a clear winner. The relatively small amount of additional trip time is worth it IMO because of the countless other benefits that it brings.

EDIT: Shazam!

[Mdcastle]

I think it's regrettable that the ramps to 82nd weren't moved to American (the north ramps could probably be dispensed with now that it's not a nightmare to cross I-494 on Penn or Lyndale during rush hour), which would make things even easier for the bus to get to the stations. The only real destination I can think of east of I-35W is Toro, and maybe they could offer a shuttle. There's one of those "cute" areas on Lyndale north of 77th, but I don't think of it as something someone from Burnsville would ride a bus to.

[mattaudio]

I agree about the ramps. I'd rather see the north ramps from 82nd eliminated, and create additional south ramps for American Blvd. This would eliminate weaving. Also, I wonder how much additional time it would take for a bus to exit, hit up two stations on Knox, then get back on the freeway. Seems like it would be worth it however since it would connect more destinations.

Regarding the skyways, I realize that's not an option here. But I wish private companies embraced dedicated transit infrastructure the way they embrace freeway exits. I worked for a few years at a large corporate campus whose property corner is the intersection of the Orange Line and another future fixed-guideway route. It wouldn't take much to build out some strong integration between this future transfer station and their existing skyway network for employees. But parking ramps!

[woofner]

Personally I would prefer online stations here because I think it would make for the optimal walkshed. But ultimately transit riders in this region will have to get used to transferring, and since Metro Transit plans to gridify the local service in this area anyway, I don't think either alignment will make a huge difference in terms of ridership due to land use.

I am more nervous about offline stations having an impact on total travel time, though. I took the 535 to Southtown the other day, and the left turns at all the megaintersections down there seemed to really stretch out the schedule. Even though the Orange Line has ludicrously wide stop spacing, it does run a fairly long 17 miles, so I think what time savings you can get is appreciated.

Not that an optimal routing is possible, since MnDot seems to have built the 76th St overpass without allowing for an inline BRT station, but in the time-honored UrbanMSP tradition I'm putting this out there anyway.

[Tcmetro]

The Knox Ave option is quite a good one, IMO. At 76th Street there is good access to the Best Buy HQ, and a lot of apartments are within a half-mile walk. The American Boulevard stop will serve the senior hi-rise and office tower, and hopefully Southtown and the car dealerships can become redeveloped into a new office/residential area.

Considering that the 540 could probably be doubled to a 15 minute frequency all day, and the idea for BRT on American Boulevard, I'd say the connections to the areas that won't be served are quite decent. A significant amount of ridership on the existing 535 bus is generated by the 94th St/James Ave business park and Normandale Community College. I'd like to see a significant restructuring of bus service in Bloomington (probably on a 30 minute schedule) to improve connections. Also, the 4 and 6 should be extended down to 98th Street to add better connections.

[woofner]

Slide 11 on this presentation implies that Metro Transit is contemplating eliminating the Penn branch of the 4 and continuing the Lyndale branch past 84th. Also depicts a route that follows American without deviations rather than the 538 with all its loops and digressions. It's probably highly schematic and who knows what'll happen in the end but it does seem to make a lot of the questions about optimal Orange Line station locations moot given that connections will likely be much better. However I'd say that favors online stations if one can be done at 76th. Best Buy is the only can't-miss trip generator and it is still in walking distance of 35W.