urbanMSP

So the argument is a person from Burnsville is likely to take the Orange Line to get a burrito at the Lake Street Taco Bell?

Obviously not?

So the argument is a person from Burnsville is likely to take the Orange Line to get a burrito at the Lake Street Taco Bell?

The argument I was trying to make is the number of people living, shopping or working around Lake street station is significantly higher than the number around American Blvd. station. I could imagine someone traveling from Burnsville for a Taco Bell burrito although a burrito from Taqueria El primo seems more plausible. A more realistic trip would be an immigrant living in Burnsville traveling to the Immigrant Resource Center Office.

Basically I don’t believe the American Blvd. station will have over three times the ridership of lake street. Or that 76th, American and 98th will have more ridership than the four downtown stops. Why do we keep making these same mistakes over and over?

Would be nice if there were updated ridership projections for each station and for the initial year of operation instead of way off in 2040.

My educated guess for average weekday ridership at each station in the first year of operation:

Burnsville (HOTC and Travelers Trail)-300
South Bloomington TC-500
Knox & American-300
Knox & 76th-500
66th Street-500
46th Street-300
Lake Street-700
Downtown stations-1,900

Total: 5,000 average weekday riders

Of course with the ups and downs of the pandemic it's difficult to predict what the situation will be like when the Orange Line opens and what travel patterns look like.

And probably an even more realistic trip would be someone from Burnsville going to Red Lobster. Or getting off at 98th Street and going to Applebee's or Snuffy's.

The tone I got from this thread is the idea that suburbanites are totally enamored with the idea of patronizing businesses on Lake Street, but only the lack of the Orange Line is preventing them from doing so; thus we'll have mobs of people getting off at Lake Street and heading towards Tacoria El Prime or wherever. I can understand city people being so enamored because after all they chose to live in the city, but I don't think that attitude extends south. I'm just arguing against that idea, not for or against any specific ridership projections or that Lake Street won't see a lot of reverse commuters. Just not a lot of suburbanites getting off there.

lol. who are earth are you arguing with?

answer: literally no one.

I don't think anyone was claiming that the only thing keeping suburbanites from visiting businesses along or near Lake Street was the Orange Line. However, it will make it a lot easier than with current transit options. In the case of bar hoppers I'd much rather see them using the Orange Line going from/to home in the southern suburbs than driving. Will there be a noticeable spike in business at places near the Lake Street Station? Probably not, but it won't be zero suburbanites taking the Orange Line to South Minneapolis either.

lol. who are earth are you arguing with?

answer: literally no one.

Windmills?

All I gotta say is imma excited as f*** (are we allowed to cuss on here?) for the orange line. And the lake street station. Especially in the next 20 years as this area develops as one of the most densely zoned areas in Minneapolis 2040. This area will be unrecognizably denser and will build around this BRT stop.

This area got burnt out last year. But this area will be developed. We must fight for the best land use usage cause this could be one of the best sustainable dense and transit oriented nodes in our metro area.

Would be nice if there were updated ridership projections for each station and for the initial year of operation instead of way off in 2040.

My educated guess for average weekday ridership at each station in the first year of operation:

Burnsville (HOTC and Travelers Trail)-300
South Bloomington TC-500
Knox & American-300
Knox & 76th-500
66th Street-500
46th Street-300
Lake Street-700
Downtown stations-1,900

Total: 5,000 average weekday riders

Of course with the ups and downs of the pandemic it's difficult to predict what the situation will be like when the Orange Line opens and what travel patterns look like.

I'm thinking 300 may be a bit generous for the American stop. I just don't see what will draw people to that stop considering in 2017 a 577,073 sq/ft office tower on a LRT line could only draw 220 daily riders. The LRT station on Lake street on the other hand had ridership of 2,534.

And probably an even more realistic trip would be someone from Burnsville going to Red Lobster. Or getting off at 98th Street and going to Applebee's or Snuffy's.

The tone I got from this thread is the idea that suburbanites are totally enamored with the idea of patronizing businesses on Lake Street, but only the lack of the Orange Line is preventing them from doing so; thus we'll have mobs of people getting off at Lake Street and heading towards Tacoria El Prime or wherever. I can understand city people being so enamored because after all they chose to live in the city, but I don't think that attitude extends south. I'm just arguing against that idea, not for or against any specific ridership projections or that Lake Street won't see a lot of reverse commuters. Just not a lot of suburbanites getting off there.

I've lived in the suburbs and if you want to go anywhere you typically drive. Judging by the Burnsville stops I'd imagine people will drive to them as well (considering the lack of sidewalks in the area). So I'm not convinced many people will pass up the Burnsville Red Lobster to hop on a bus to Bloomington or Applebee's for that matter. But people will travel to try something different. And I guess that means someone downtown or on Lake street will travel to Bloomington for Red Lobster or Applebee's. This also means people from the suburbs may want to try a restaurant in the city. And if you happen to find yourself on Nicollet and 24th may I suggest the best pork burrito at yeah yeah taco.

I know plenty of people who live in the suburbs and are perfectly happy driving everywhere. They will take transit to a game or concert from a park and ride lot but don't use it to move around their city. That is fine with me. Looking at maps I'm not even sure how well local buses would work in the outer ring suburbs.

The argument I've been trying to make is we shouldn't downplay ridership projections so we can skip building transit in urban areas where it is needed.

Would be nice if there were updated ridership projections for each station and for the initial year of operation instead of way off in 2040.

My educated guess for average weekday ridership at each station in the first year of operation:

Burnsville (HOTC and Travelers Trail)-300
South Bloomington TC-500
Knox & American-300
Knox & 76th-500
66th Street-500
46th Street-300
Lake Street-700
Downtown stations-1,900

Total: 5,000 average weekday riders

Of course with the ups and downs of the pandemic it's difficult to predict what the situation will be like when the Orange Line opens and what travel patterns look like.

I'm thinking 300 may be a bit generous for the American stop. I just don't see what will draw people to that stop considering in 2017 a 577,073 sq/ft office tower on a LRT line could only draw 220 daily riders. The LRT station on Lake street on the other hand had ridership of 2,534.

I assume you're referring to Bloomington Central Station, which to be fair is sandwiched between two stations that are within walking distance of BCS. Knox & American will be kind of close to Knox & 76th, but I think far enough away that the two stations aren't overlapping coverage areas. In addition to Southtown the Penn American area has developed with medium-density residential, which should help attract ridership.

Would be nice if there were updated ridership projections for each station and for the initial year of operation instead of way off in 2040.

My educated guess for average weekday ridership at each station in the first year of operation:

Burnsville (HOTC and Travelers Trail)-300
South Bloomington TC-500
Knox & American-300
Knox & 76th-500
66th Street-500
46th Street-300
Lake Street-700
Downtown stations-1,900

Total: 5,000 average weekday riders

Of course with the ups and downs of the pandemic it's difficult to predict what the situation will be like when the Orange Line opens and what travel patterns look like.

I'm thinking 300 may be a bit generous for the American stop. I just don't see what will draw people to that stop considering in 2017 a 577,073 sq/ft office tower on a LRT line could only draw 220 daily riders. The LRT station on Lake street on the other hand had ridership of 2,534.

I assume you're referring to Bloomington Central Station, which to be fair is sandwiched between two stations that are within walking distance of BCS. Knox & American will be kind of close to Knox & 76th, but I think far enough away that the two stations aren't overlapping coverage areas. In addition to Southtown the Penn American area has developed with medium-density residential, which should help attract ridership.

I hope I'm wrong but the number of people living, working or shopping per acre in this area probably isn't going to drive ridership. I count 5 car dealerships, 2 furniture stores and 3 auto body shops near the American stop. I wouldn't expect much ridership from these businesses. The stop at 76th is only slightly further than from BCS to 28th and I'd imagine anyone north of 494 will just go to that stop so probably not a lot of riders walking in from the north at American. That said I do see about a dozen restaurants, a grocery store and other retailers in the area so hopefully they will drive some ridership.

Speaking of BCS. The last 4 stops on the blue line can fit between Lake Street and Franklin station yet Lake street and Franklin have more riders than those 4 combined. Could you imagine if they added another station by the Delta offices? I think I heard that was planned at some point.

I'm thinking 300 may be a bit generous for the American stop. I just don't see what will draw people to that stop considering in 2017 a 577,073 sq/ft office tower on a LRT line could only draw 220 daily riders. The LRT station on Lake street on the other hand had ridership of 2,534.

I assume you're referring to Bloomington Central Station, which to be fair is sandwiched between two stations that are within walking distance of BCS. Knox & American will be kind of close to Knox & 76th, but I think far enough away that the two stations aren't overlapping coverage areas. In addition to Southtown the Penn American area has developed with medium-density residential, which should help attract ridership.

I hope I'm wrong but the number of people living, working or shopping per acre in this area probably isn't going to drive ridership. I count 5 car dealerships, 2 furniture stores and 3 auto body shops near the American stop. I wouldn't expect much ridership from these businesses. The stop at 76th is only slightly further than from BCS to 28th and I'd imagine anyone north of 494 will just go to that stop so probably not a lot of riders walking in from the north at American. That said I do see about a dozen restaurants, a grocery store and other retailers in the area so hopefully they will drive some ridership.

Speaking of BCS. The last 4 stops on the blue line can fit between Lake Street and Franklin station yet Lake street and Franklin have more riders than those 4 combined. Could you imagine if they added another station by the Delta offices? I think I heard that was planned at some point.

If they had a ped /bike bridge over 35w that would access best buy and Aldi's on the other side that would be awesome. Yes 76th is right there but it's pretty out of the way

I assume you're referring to Bloomington Central Station, which to be fair is sandwiched between two stations that are within walking distance of BCS. Knox & American will be kind of close to Knox & 76th, but I think far enough away that the two stations aren't overlapping coverage areas. In addition to Southtown the Penn American area has developed with medium-density residential, which should help attract ridership.

I hope I'm wrong but the number of people living, working or shopping per acre in this area probably isn't going to drive ridership. I count 5 car dealerships, 2 furniture stores and 3 auto body shops near the American stop. I wouldn't expect much ridership from these businesses. The stop at 76th is only slightly further than from BCS to 28th and I'd imagine anyone north of 494 will just go to that stop so probably not a lot of riders walking in from the north at American. That said I do see about a dozen restaurants, a grocery store and other retailers in the area so hopefully they will drive some ridership.

Speaking of BCS. The last 4 stops on the blue line can fit between Lake Street and Franklin station yet Lake street and Franklin have more riders than those 4 combined. Could you imagine if they added another station by the Delta offices? I think I heard that was planned at some point.

If they had a ped /bike bridge over 35w that would access best buy and Aldi's on the other side that would be awesome. Yes 76th is right there but it's pretty out of the way

The stations will be relatively close to 76th so not that far out of the way. Although I'm not sure how many people will like carrying bags of groceries .7 miles from Aldi. Also, placing the stations by 76th makes the park and ride less attractive. Looking at the Best Buy HQ again I'm beginning to wonder how many will use the Orange line. It is nice having 1.6 million square feet of office space near this stop unfortunately it sits on 1.5 million square feet of land.

Are we assuming no one in those large apartment complexes at Penn-American will ride the bus?

Are we assuming no one in those large apartment complexes at Penn-American will ride the bus?

Exactly. And all signs point to more of that coming to the area. At this point, I'd guess most of Southtown is on the table for redevelopment.

I'm thinking 300 may be a bit generous for the American stop. I just don't see what will draw people to that stop considering in 2017 a 577,073 sq/ft office tower on a LRT line could only draw 220 daily riders. The LRT station on Lake street on the other hand had ridership of 2,534.

I assume you're referring to Bloomington Central Station, which to be fair is sandwiched between two stations that are within walking distance of BCS. Knox & American will be kind of close to Knox & 76th, but I think far enough away that the two stations aren't overlapping coverage areas. In addition to Southtown the Penn American area has developed with medium-density residential, which should help attract ridership.

I hope I'm wrong but the number of people living, working or shopping per acre in this area probably isn't going to drive ridership. I count 5 car dealerships, 2 furniture stores and 3 auto body shops near the American stop. I wouldn't expect much ridership from these businesses. The stop at 76th is only slightly further than from BCS to 28th and I'd imagine anyone north of 494 will just go to that stop so probably not a lot of riders walking in from the north at American. That said I do see about a dozen restaurants, a grocery store and other retailers in the area so hopefully they will drive some ridership.

Speaking of BCS. The last 4 stops on the blue line can fit between Lake Street and Franklin station yet Lake street and Franklin have more riders than those 4 combined. Could you imagine if they added another station by the Delta offices? I think I heard that was planned at some point.

I’d say those car dealerships are ripe for redevelopment.. they are owned by people looking for the best ROI seems only logical they will sell and develop them moving their dealerships to a new location they can have a better location and bigger space. I think within 5 years they will be selling their last car.. 4months if they were a Chevy or Chystler lol

What plot of land in Bloomington is big enough and zoned to hold a relocated car dealership?

I'm sure car dealers would just move to a bigger plot of land if one were available, but that is scare closer to the city, so the trend is to expand up with structured parking rather than out. This has the side benefit of protecting inventory from hail and encouraging people to still shop for cars when it's raining and makes the dealership look impressive, but the main point is additional inventory storage on constrained sites.

It's not just the Bloomington / Richfield market these are serving but these (and the one in Hopkins we're also complaining exists) are the closest dealers to the entire city of Minneapolis south of downtown.

What plot of land in Bloomington is big enough and zoned to hold a relocated car dealership?

I'm sure car dealers would just move to a bigger plot of land if one were available, but that is scare closer to the city, so the trend is to expand up with structured parking rather than out. This has the side benefit of protecting inventory from hail and encouraging people to still shop for cars when it's raining, but the main point is additional inventory storage on constrained sites.

It's not just the Bloomington / Richfield market these are serving but these (and the one in Hopkins we're also complaining exists) are the closest dealers to the entire city of Minneapolis south of downtown.

Do car dealerships in general have a future? Online car sales are already up to 15% of the total, and only growing. In 10 years are we going to need 5 Honda dealerships in the metro, as we currently have? I'd guess the answer is no, though I am far from an expert.

Well, there's that article about Amazon opening department stores. Turns out people don't like ordering a new dress
online and then finding out it doesn't fit or they don't like the way the fabric feels or the color looks different than on the screen.

I personally can't imagine going onto Amazon or Honda.com, ordering a new Civic like I would light bulbs or a pair of socks, and then having it delivered to my house and finding out the seat's uncomfortable or my bicycle won't fit in back.